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Corona Virus Business Wage Relief


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HOLA441
39 minutes ago, stop_the_craziness said:

…..which is why under-declaring your income on self-assessment tax form for the last 3 years is suddenly going to look like a very, very bad idea.

Also buggered if you have registered a net loss in you first few years of trading due to set up costs, I went self employed on 1/7/2018 but my last return for 2018/19 was a net loss resulting in a £2.5k tax rebate from employed earnings from April to June 2018. 

Running at a profit for this year but with not even 2 full years under my belt looks like it's just £95 week UC for me, although I doubt that too now as a joint claim with the wife still working put our "official" net income from Feb 19 to Feb 20 (13 months) at £48k.

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HOLA442

looks like getting even New style jsa is going to be difficult 

 

not paid any NI since 2014 but seems NI credit count towards it so assuming they credit you first and then do a claim i assume. 

 

To be eligible for ‘new style’ JSA you’ll need to have worked as an employee and paid Class 1 National Insurance contributions, usually in the last 2 to 3 years. National Insurance credits can also count.

You will not be eligible if you were self-employed and only paid Class 2 National Insurance contributions, unless you were working as a share fisherman or a volunteer development worker.

You’ll also need to:

  • be 18 or over
  • be under the State Pension age
  • not be in full-time education
  • be available to work
  • not be working at the moment, or be working less than 16 hours per week on average
  • not have an illness or disability which stops you from working
  • live in England, Scotland or Wales
  • have the right to work in the UK

You’ll also need to show you’re looking for work to keep getting payments.

Your partner’s income and savings will not affect your claim.

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HOLA443

image.thumb.png.5674f5acc93013d32c043a49f4ec48fe.pngI think this is from the USA but its probably similar to the UK situation.

image.png.876a781e2e9c97687f722667fb303f44.png

https://www.ft.com/content/bd63d562-6d1b-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

Now if it is similar or worse consider that.

  • The grants come in May end
  • The PM told the public to avoid pubs, restaurants etc etc on the 16th that was it really the later announcements just confirmed it.

From and including: Tuesday, 17 March 2020
To, but not including Monday, 25 May 2020

Result: 69 days

So if the infographic is true then circa 20% of small businesses can wait that long for the money.

I would say if the government cannot get the loans into the banks by the end of this week then xx% are screwed either way and sadly workers will have false hope.

Assuming this goes on for more then 3-6 months I have spoken to the bank re the loan details and they asked for all the accounts etc.

I have a wage bill 20-30+K pm depending on business and a turnover of over a million and no borrowing at all with good profitability before being closed obv ?.

I will keep you all posted at how much they offer (which I may or may not take advantage of).... I would not lend anything to a business in my industry as even with good profits we are literally shut down maybe for months.

If the average business has 27 cash days they are going to need 2/4 cash months loan to pull off the JRS 

 



 

Edited by Fromage Frais
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HOLA444
52 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

I will keep you all posted at how much they offer (which I may or may not take advantage of).... I would not lend anything to a business in my industry as even with good profits we are literally shut down maybe for months.

Quarter rent day tomorrow, or next Wednesday depending what kind of lease you are on. Could put a real dent in those finances for those who can't negotiate a rent extension. 

Is your business seasonal? If so what kind of disadvantage would staff on the scheme be on if their wage is calculated on a February wage? 

Edited by regprentice
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HOLA445
4 hours ago, Fromage Frais said:

Yes the FT have more information......but still a lot of missing info that needs to be clarified.

https://www.ft.com/content/bd63d562-6d1b-11ea-89df-41bea055720b

I have a lot of staff now demanding to be furloughed but as nasty as it sounds I cannot sign up to something open ended when i do not have all the details.

I have even had one member of staff tell me that they work for the government not me and not longer have to come in!  (essential maintenance works on own outside.)

  1. You notify staff they are to be furloughed 
  2. You notify HMRC via a website that will not be ready until end of April (30th).
  3. You pay 80% of their salary or 80% of Feb level if they are on variable.*
  4. You then fill in the details....and you get the money end of May (if application is successful)

So from what I see

  • You will need enough money to pay March and April Payroll before getting paid.
  • You will need more money than above if the grant application fails or the scheme is delayed
  • You will need someone clever to do all that work!
  • Many businesses where suffering before the pandemic got serious they may not have the money so the government expects (funny) that they will get the cash from the VAT delay and the business loan scheme......I contacted my bank to see if its worth looking at and the response..."we still don’t know all the information".
  • Does this stand down period count for holidays, pension and ni etc etc if so then you can add xx% and complexity to it
  • Also a staff member may reject being furloughed and then you then have to go through that as it may impact their contract etc etc.  So if you have an employee who has worked for say xx years  and near retirement they may think that scenario is more beneficial.... well that is how i read it tbh 

It puts a lot of pressure on small business owners they could do without tbh a UBI would have been better and just paid once an employee is temp laid off.

I dont see how many small businesses are going to have the cash for another 2 months payroll + admin costs (maybe 3) on the promise of payment when many have already paid out to keep open over the last few weeks.


 

 

 

How can your staff 'demand to be furloughed' ? what do they think it is, an option for them to sit at home and be paid for not working because it suits them?

Isn't it a case of either  business as normal, or stop business  entirely/furlough all workers and zero revenue coming in?

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HOLA446
4 minutes ago, Andy T said:

How can your staff 'demand to be furloughed' ? what do they think it is, an option for them to sit at home and be paid for not working because it suits them?

Isn't it a case of either  business as normal, or stop business  entirely/furlough all workers and zero revenue coming in?

That's the way it works. Employees can request being furloughed. Govt seems to think some staff will valiantly stand aside and be furloughed to let others proudly stay on and work full time so that no staff have to have their hours cut. 

On other forums there are people saying things like 'I need to stay at home and look after my elderly mum can I be furloughed', or 'I'm at risk because of an underlying health condition, can I be furloughed?'  

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HOLA447
53 minutes ago, regprentice said:

Quarter rent day tomorrow, or next Wednesday depending what kind of lease you are on. Could put a real dent in those finances for those who can't negotiate a rent extension. 

Is your business seasonal? If so what kind of disadvantage would staff on the scheme be on if their wage is calculated on a February wage? 

Freehold no loans (bought for same price as a house... as I could not afford a house and get job near at the time)

Yes pretty seasonal and yes for many hours are a bit less in feb (short month also_

Edited by Fromage Frais
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HOLA448
47 minutes ago, Andy T said:

How can your staff 'demand to be furloughed' ? what do they think it is, an option for them to sit at home and be paid for not working because it suits them?

Isn't it a case of either  business as normal, or stop business  entirely/furlough all workers and zero revenue coming in?

To be fair most of the front line folk know the place closed = no work.

problem is the back office and main folks see themselves as taking a risk.... so helpfully leaving all this admin to the boss.

personally I would have turned up to at least help with the furloughing lool

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HOLA449
36 minutes ago, regprentice said:

That's the way it works. Employees can request being furloughed. Govt seems to think some staff will valiantly stand aside and be furloughed to let others proudly stay on and work full time so that no staff have to have their hours cut. 

On other forums there are people saying things like 'I need to stay at home and look after my elderly mum can I be furloughed', or 'I'm at risk because of an underlying health condition, can I be furloughed?'  

From an admin perspective if the detail does not hold any nasty surprises.... I will mothball and furlough everyone and carry out the admin.

I will have to put a caveat in the letter though... to reserve the right to make redundant if it does not work out as god knows when this is all over.

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HOLA4410
52 minutes ago, Andy T said:

How can your staff 'demand to be furloughed' ? what do they think it is, an option for them to sit at home and be paid for not working because it suits them?

Isn't it a case of either  business as normal, or stop business  entirely/furlough all workers and zero revenue coming in?

These days its just bizzare.

I look at twitter and Tim Martin is the new satan.  Apparently he has 40 million £ net worth but also has 40,000 staff so @2000 a month thats 80,000,000 a month wage bill even its half that its still stupendous.

He has been told that morally he should pay all his staff full pay.

Its not for me to judge the morals but its not beyond the realms of possibility that he has loans and rents and that his "40 million" is a drop in the ocean.

Costa fair play but they are owned by Coca Cola and can probably borrow money cheaper than most countries.

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HOLA4411
8 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

These days its just bizzare.

I look at twitter and Tim Martin is the new satan.  Apparently he has 40 million £ net worth but also has 40,000 staff so @2000 a month thats 80,000,000 a month wage bill even its half that its still stupendous.

He has been told that morally he should pay all his staff full pay.

Its not for me to judge the morals but its not beyond the realms of possibility that he has loans and rents and that his "40 million" is a drop in the ocean.

Costa fair play but they are owned by Coca Cola and can probably borrow money cheaper than most countries.

I really don't understand where the vitriol came from. Maybe because of his Brexit stance people are using this as a stick to beat him with.

 

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HOLA4412

And still ****** all for those the govt have decided are ''key workers'' who are expected to carry on working and exposing themselves to a much higher risk of catching the virus, many of whom earn far less than the maximum figures on offer to furloughed workers or self employed.

 

Just to really rub it in any key workers who do have to self isolate because they or members of their household are in a high risk group have to take annual leave or unpaid leave.

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HOLA4413
2 minutes ago, nome said:

And still ****** all for those the govt have decided are ''key workers'' who are expected to carry on working and exposing themselves to a much higher risk of catching the virus, many of whom earn far less than the maximum figures on offer to furloughed workers or self employed.

 

Just to really rub it in any key workers who do have to self isolate because they or members of their household are in a high risk group have to take annual leave or unpaid leave.

And they are being prioritised for antibody tests to make sure they get back to work as soon as possible.

Dont want them self-isolating if they actually only got a cold and are carrying antibodies. Chris whitty seemed quite happy last week nhs staff could come to work with any illness they liked as long as it wasn't coronavirus. 

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HOLA4414
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HOLA4415
5 hours ago, stop_the_craziness said:

…..which is why under-declaring your income on self-assessment tax form for the last 3 years is suddenly going to look like a very, very bad idea.

Not massively contrary to all the gig worker stories many self employed people pay a reasonable amount of tax and there is a cap on this payout of £36k a year doesn't matter what the 'true' figure is , in addition if based  on your self assessment your dividend income will be included (if it is in your tax calc) 

Of course many of us have paid a lot more tax in Company VAT, Corp tax, employers NI  etc which won't get taken into account but hey why should it we are only creating jobs....bit like the slating of the middle class (which I should say I was one of until I saw a great post on here saying most of those doctors we are looking to are probably middle class)

When we come out of this who is going to create the new jobs ? the furloughed or the small and medium sized business owners ? 

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HOLA4416

What about all of those "Self Employed/Contractor/IR35/Sole Trader/Umbrella Company" people who have paid no Tax/NI, have contributed nothing to "The System" & have been coining it in for years & going so far as to brag about how clever they are for avoiding paying anything at all compared to their PAYE counterparts? Should they be entitled to a Taxpayer-funded bailout?

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HOLA4417
46 minutes ago, mspL4 said:

What about all of those "Self Employed/Contractor/IR35/Sole Trader/Umbrella Company" people who have paid no Tax/NI, have contributed nothing to "The System" & have been coining it in for years & going so far as to brag about how clever they are for avoiding paying anything at all compared to their PAYE counterparts? Should they be entitled to a Taxpayer-funded bailout?

Plenty of nurses and teachers doing the same. 

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/taxbeating/article-7376787/Self-employed-face-losing-homes-innocently-using-tax-loophole.html

Interesting tone to that article. When Ltd company contractors pay themselves nothing through offshore companies they're the scum of the earth, when teachers and nurses do it it is an 'innocent tax loophole' and they were 'naive'. 

Personally Im inside ir35 so pay employers national insurance of 14% on top of full employees Tax and NI with no other employee benefits, though I'm well paid compared to 'permie' employees. I also pay an extra £2.5k in tax simply for being Scottish. 

There is a lot more variability and unfairness in those rules once you start to pick them apart for both self employed and 'normal' employees. 

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HOLA4418
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HOLA4419
33 minutes ago, Andy T said:

The 80% pay for employed, capped at £2500 , I take it this will be Gross wages £2500, and the usual tax/NI will be deducted from that?

It does say '£2500 for employment costs' rather than £2500 paid wages.

Yes this is correct. It may also include Employers NI at around 14% and possibly even the pension contributions under the govts mandatory NEST pension scheme which are around 3% Iirc. 

According to Yesterday's FT employers NI is being considered but they haven't made a decision. 

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HOLA4420
2 hours ago, mspL4 said:

What about all of those "Self Employed/Contractor/IR35/Sole Trader/Umbrella Company" people who have paid no Tax/NI, have contributed nothing to "The System" & have been coining it in for years & going so far as to brag about how clever they are for avoiding paying anything at all compared to their PAYE counterparts? Should they be entitled to a Taxpayer-funded bailout?

I've never tried to skirt IR35 rules myself, but it simply isn't true to suggest that those who do are paying no tax. Less tax or, more specifically, less NI, perhaps, but even if you follow the usual "outside IR35" playbook you are paying ~20% corporation tax and dividend tax, allowances for the latter being much less generous than in the past - so maybe a difference of 20% or so in the tax burden. 

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HOLA4421

Going to start the process (even though I have no detailed information)

As staff effectively had no job since the closure of hospitality businesses its either a case of 

  1. Agree to be furloughed
  2. do not want to be furloughed > assume redundancy
  3. agree to be furloughed and then if not eligible for some reason or scheme fails > assume redundancy

In the attempt to avoid 0 hours contracts i have a quite a few staff that contractually I need to pay as they have contracted hours etc etc.

So I am not going to wait for the details as why add extra time to this possible cost.

I do not see it on the GOV site but I have a couple of staff one who started first week of March and another who started a few days before the advice and then closure.

I see that the date28/29th March is banded about on non gov sites.

Does this mean that for example if you where a manager and you started your new 40,000 a year job on 1 March or later you are not eligible for the scheme?

 

Edited by Fromage Frais
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HOLA4422
1 hour ago, Fromage Frais said:

Going to start the process (even though I have no detailed information)

As staff effectively had no job since the closure of hospitality businesses its either a case of 

  1. Agree to be furloughed
  2. do not want to be furloughed > assume redundancy
  3. agree to be furloughed and then if not eligible for some reason or scheme fails > assume redundancy

In the attempt to avoid 0 hours contracts i have a quite a few staff that contractually I need to pay as they have contracted hours etc etc.

So I am not going to wait for the details as why add extra time to this possible cost.

I do not see it on the GOV site but I have a couple of staff one who started first week of March and another who started a few days before the advice and then closure.

I see that the date28/29th March is banded about on non gov sites.

Does this mean that for example if you where a manager and you started your new 40,000 a year job on 1 March or later you are not eligible for the scheme?

 

I am reading it like that too. I have a staff member who joined March 2nd and I reckon that person falls between the cracks which is a little unfair.

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HOLA4423
6 hours ago, Patfig said:

I am reading it like that too. I have a staff member who joined March 2nd and I reckon that person falls between the cracks which is a little unfair.

I have not seen it on official documentation a lot of websites state that but on the telegraph they state the much fairer as in employment date businesses closed by government.

 

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HOLA4424

Had an lovely team member not turn up to work today after saying they would.

No contact just helping board up a commercial property last steps before total furlough

Hmm furlough or terminate......

Why not just declare covid and take 14 i just do not understand some folk.

Honestly really people expect you to pay out 3 months cash and admin the lot and they cannot even have the decency to either stick to their word or tell a white lie so you can make other arrangements.

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HOLA4425
28 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said:

Had an lovely team member not turn up to work today after saying they would.

No contact just helping board up a commercial property last steps before total furlough

Hmm furlough or terminate......

Why not just declare covid and take 14 i just do not understand some folk.

Honestly really people expect you to pay out 3 months cash and admin the lot and they cannot even have the decency to either stick to their word or tell a white lie so you can make other arrangements.

I can tell your pissed.

You try to be nice and they take the mick

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