30% pay rises for NHS workers.

[spyguy]

17 minutes ago, frederico said:

err , the NHS costs money, privately funded systems such as in the US are a nightmare for all but the wealthy.

 

A health service is never going to be efficient, its about looking after people, its not in deficit its underfunded.

House prices, stock markets , bitcoin, Russian spies don't really matter when you're seriously ill.

 

I learned nurses are on band 5, wth the new fantastic paydeal it amounts to f.a. This country needs to get things in perspective and stop being such greedy grabbing little .... things.

Er, you could take your argument call health systems greedy grabbing?

Research shows that hospitals dont have a huge effect on a countries health.

Clean water, sewage system, primary health cares - vaccinations, etc, yep.

[Tw@t Badger]

10 minutes ago, spyguy said:

Er, you could take your argument call health systems greedy grabbing?

Research shows that hospitals dont have a huge effect on a countries health.

Clean water, sewage system, primary health cares - vaccinations, etc, yep.

Very true.

It is also unlikely that anybody reading this post will ever need an intensive care unit or life saving surgery...... shall we just close them down cos in the grand scheme of things the cost slot and don't really contribute to the greater health of the population?

[spyguy]

2 minutes ago, Tw@t Badger said:

Very true.

It is also unlikely that anybody reading this post will ever need an intensive care unit or life saving surgery...... shall we just close them down cos in the grand scheme of things the cost slot and don't really contribute to the greater health of the population?

No.

They are emergency resources, which a large percentage of the population will never see.

My point is that heslth spending should not be poured, unconditionally,  into acute hospitals. Because health spending is unquestionably good and beyond question.

The most dumb manifestation of this is the 30-50% of acute hospital beds being occupied by fit but frail oaps.

[Tw@t Badger]

2 minutes ago, spyguy said:

No.

They are emergency resources, which a large percentage of the population will never see.

My point is that heslth spending should not be poured, unconditionally,  into acute hospitals. Because health spending is unquestionably good and beyond question.

The most dumb manifestation of this is the 30-50% of acute hospital beds being occupied by fit but frail oaps.

Not the elderly patient thing again. I thought we'd already done that 16 pages ago.

But I do agree with some of your points. Sometimes it feels like we are pouring good money after bad.

[frederico]

1 hour ago, spyguy said:

Er, you could take your argument call health systems greedy grabbing?

Research shows that hospitals dont have a huge effect on a countries health.

Clean water, sewage system, primary health cares - vaccinations, etc, yep.

When you're in hospital and being asked for a credit card or you die, try making this argument. Your loved ones will be well impressed.

Of course it will never happen to you 

[spyguy]

36 minutes ago, frederico said:

When you're in hospital and being asked for a credit card or you die, try making this argument. Your loved ones will be well impressed.

Of course it will never happen to you 

You have insurance.

Lik if your house is hut by an uninsured driver. Thats how i surancd works - risk spread across a broad population.

[Tw@t Badger]

31 minutes ago, spyguy said:

You have insurance.

Lik if your house is hut by an uninsured driver. Thats how i surancd works - risk spread across a broad population.

Oh, yes. Those lovely, caring and honest insurance companies. Yep, we will begin your chemo just as soon as we get the go ahead from your insurance company..........

[spyguy]

23 minutes ago, Tw@t Badger said:

Oh, yes. Those lovely, caring and honest insurance companies. Yep, we will begin your chemo just as soon as we get the go ahead from your insurance company..........

Insurance is a market. Get most in and tge extreme events are covered.

[GregBowman]

11 hours ago, Hullabaloo82 said:

Have a virtual "thumbs up". 

I appreciate that these are emotive topics and it's sometimes possible to get carried away - something I'm guilty of myself also.

We often come at things from a different angle but I do appreciate your point if view  (and others) even if it doesn't always seem that wsy. 

Thank you ??

[GregBowman]

6 hours ago, spyguy said:

Insurance is a market. Get most in and tge extreme events are covered.

It might be SG but in some cases mandatory like car insurance and they properly take the p***, weirdly many clamour for the utilities to be privatised and the railways yet never car insurance

I can choose whether I travel on the rail or not but many millions have no realistic choice whether to use their car or not - surely a no brainer then to run a government backed insurance scheme ?

I have deep experience of insurance co’s and was a CIO of one for a while only 4 years ago they are deeply greedy businesses chock full of some very dubious characters at senior levels - who benefit hugely from this legalised ‘private tax’

its not a market in the traditional sense unless it is the smaller areas like pet insurance 

Edited April 7, 2018 by GregBowman

[winkie]

Agree, insurance a licence to make money.......accidental death insurance anyone, really cheap from £5 a month.

[ccc]

Isn't national insurance what this is for ? 

[winkie]

6 minutes ago, ccc said:

Isn't national insurance what this is for ? 

I would say NI is loss making......no way does it cover for both the NHS and state pension costs......makes me laugh when people say they have paid into the system, most over a lifetime will take out more than they pay in even taking into account inflation, just another tax, maybe tax is not enough?......that is why I do not agree with compulsory private health insurance most would lose out........insurance companies and their shareholders  would not of course.

[frederico]

13 hours ago, spyguy said:

You have insurance.

Lik if your house is hut by an uninsured driver. Thats how i surancd works - risk spread across a broad population.

I'm sorry but I really do not have any faith in insurance companies, if they don't pay they make more profit.

Plus if I was ill enough to need hospital, I don't think I would like the additional aggro of dealing with an insurance company.

Of course when profit maximization is involved you get all sorts of daft money making scams from all parties.

[spyguy]

2 minutes ago, frederico said:

I'm sorry but I really do not have any faith in insurance companies, if they don't pay they make more profit.

Plus if I was ill enough to need hospital, I don't think I would like the additional aggro of dealing with an insurance company.

Of course when profit maximization is involved you get all sorts of daft money making scams from all parties.

Err. Insurance companies dont have to be for profit.

Before the NHS, my gran organised a workers insurance scheme.

Basically, factory members contributed x/m to pay for medical care.

The board then hired + fired Drs.

[Will!]

I think the single best thing about state health insurance is that it spreads risk in the broadest pool.

My greatest reservation regarding a system of health insurance in the UK similar to France, Germany, the Benelux or Scandinavian countries is the UK's history to the point of tradition of mis-selling financial products (personal pensions, endowment mortgages, the last days of Equitable Life, liar loans, PPI etc) and suspension of moral hazard when a financial institution implodes. If some future private health insurance company in a system of health insurance in the UK as described above fails in the manner of, say, Northern Rock, will the government step in to make policyholders whole? Will it provide a health insurance version of the Financial Services Compensation Scheme? If so, where is the benefit of a competitive marketplace for health insurance over a state monopoly?

[Fence]

On 06/04/2018 at 7:10 PM, spyguy said:

The most dumb manifestation of this is the 30-50% of acute hospital beds being occupied by fit but frail oaps

That's a/the root problem.  We restricted social care (remember "care in the community" aka "on the streets") and the Health Service picked up the tab.  An acute hospital is meant to be that, not a closed down community hospital or an old people's home.  But trying to get the Councils and NHS, etc to work seamlessly together (needs more than a nice name and a weekly cup of tea together) has been a long standing issue.  Throw in poor funding and money being spent on certain wages and pensions and wasted on some silly projects (even without PFI) and it's a really tough ask.

[Fence]

8 hours ago, Will! said:

My greatest reservation regarding a system of health insurance in the UK similar to France, Germany, the Benelux or Scandinavian countries is....

Could you clarify please.  We used the German system quite a bit and it worked (apart from one serious case of medical negligence in a hospital with no recourse).  But then we did not do a deep dive on the scheme financials, etc, just paid our (quasi state?) AOK insurance.  Just wondered if there are existing alternatives to the NHS than the US scheme.

Edited April 8, 2018 by Fence

[PopGun]

On 06/04/2018 at 9:27 PM, spyguy said:

You have insurance.

Lik if your house is hut by an uninsured driver. Thats how i surancd works - risk spread across a broad population.

For such a busy guy, you do tend to waste a lot of time on here ..

Btw how much more expensive does this insurance get once you get older and/or start developing acute long term conditions?!

[PopGun]

On 07/04/2018 at 10:35 AM, spyguy said:

Err. Insurance companies dont have to be for profit.

Before the NHS, my gran organised a workers insurance scheme.

Basically, factory members contributed x/m to pay for medical care.

The board then hired + fired Drs.

I didn’t realise you where that old Spy? Oh my mistake you’re simply talking pish again.

[2buyornot2buy]

24 minutes ago, PopGun said:

I didn’t realise you where that old Spy? Oh my mistake you’re simply talking pish again.

 

27 minutes ago, PopGun said:

For such a busy guy, you do tend to waste a lot of time on here ..

Don't be a Muppet. Play the ball not the man. 

[spyguy]

56 minutes ago, PopGun said:

I didn’t realise you where that old Spy? Oh my mistake you’re simply talking pish again.

What do you think happened before NHS?

Workers operated collectives for bith health and life insurance.

 

[spyguy]

11 hours ago, Fence said:

Could you clarify please.  We used the German system quite a bit and it worked (apart from one serious case of medical negligence in a hospital with no recourse).  But then we did not do a deep dive on the scheme financials, etc, just paid our (quasi state?) AOK insurance.  Just wondered if there are existing alternatives to the NHS than the US scheme.

There are a huge number of different ways in which healthcare can be delivered to the population.

Despite the self interested spin there are other healthcare systens other than the states or NHS. 

[nothernsoul]

Both france and germany spend a much higher percentage of GDP on health than Britain. You can argue their systems are better, but they are not cheaper. USA spends nearly double percentage of GDP on healthcare than UK, without even fully covering the whole population. Healthcare will always be expensive  whatever system you have.

My own grandmother was a child pre NHS. She is no longer alive but i remember her telling me it wasnt much fun. I think the landslide for Atlees government and the Conservatives decision 5 years later to keep what they put in place proves most of the population thought that as well. 

 

[PopGun]

53 minutes ago, 2buyornot2buy said:

 

Don't be a Muppet. Play the ball not the man. 

Don’t be an idiot and fall for the act.