Noallegiance Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/15604971.First_house_in_the_UK_to_be_sold_in_Bitcoin_as_developers_admit__massive_risk_/?ref=mr&lp=15#comments-anchor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCountOfNowhere Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 Jesus wept Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noallegiance Posted October 20, 2017 Author Share Posted October 20, 2017 Not too sure how the affordability line can be trotted out. Most people don't have Bitcoin. A tiny portion of people will have made this kind of money from Bitcoin. Most prospective buyers would still need three-hundred-and-seventy-five-thousand old fashioned widgets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiltedjen Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 With bitcoin you hold until you don’t need to convert it to fiat. eventually you can just spend it.  this is a bit of a gimmic, but the day will come when houses cost 0.001 BTC.  still 10 years away from it being wide-spread.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 33 minutes ago, jiltedjen said: With bitcoin you hold until you don’t need to convert it to fiat. eventually you can just spend it.  this is a bit of a gimmic, but the day will come when houses cost 0.001 BTC.  still 10 years away from it being wide-spread.  But it won't, there are bigger players who will have their own separate blockchain-alike that will be backed with more "stuff" making it more useful. Bitcoin itself will be dead the moment quantum computing is viable and this is already on its own moore's law like growth path China are supposedly already working on a quantum blockchain (which I can only guess combats that known flaw) with anything based on non-quantum cryptographic technology. Bitcoin has a lifetime!   It won't last forever. It is unlikely a house will cost 0.001. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nayth Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 56 minutes ago, jiltedjen said: With bitcoin you hold until you don’t need to convert it to fiat. eventually you can just spend it.  this is a bit of a gimmic, but the day will come when houses cost 0.001 BTC.  still 10 years away from it being wide-spread.  Really? It's easy then, just need to buy a few bitcoin and housing crisis solved for everyone, right?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Noallegiance said: Not too sure how the affordability line can be trotted out. Most people don't have Bitcoin. A tiny portion of people will have made this kind of money from Bitcoin. Most prospective buyers would still need three-hundred-and-seventy-five-thousand old fashioned widgets. I'm guessing most prospective buyers don't have or don't want to spend £375k either. Perhaps why the house was sold for bitcoin instead. I wonder if this subject might have something in common with the house raffles where they can't sell for what they want either, and another sign of the top, particularly when the developers admit massive risk. 11 minutes ago, nayth said: Really? It's easy then, just need to buy a few bitcoin and housing crisis solved for everyone, right?! Yes that and some raffles. Edited October 20, 2017 by Arpeggio Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted October 20, 2017 Share Posted October 20, 2017 30 minutes ago, Odin said: But it won't, there are bigger players who will have their own separate blockchain-alike that will be backed with more "stuff" making it more useful. Bitcoin itself will be dead the moment quantum computing is viable and this is already on its own moore's law like growth path China are supposedly already working on a quantum blockchain (which I can only guess combats that known flaw) with anything based on non-quantum cryptographic technology. Bitcoin has a lifetime!   It won't last forever. It is unlikely a house will cost 0.001. +1 Bitcoin's only grasp at value is rarity through the prime number serial number and they are now tricky to mine because they've found so many. The moment quantum computing comes through (or cheaper energy and processing) it'll be like cranking open the printing press. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darby Ram Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 6 hours ago, adarmo said: +1 Bitcoin's only grasp at value is rarity through the prime number serial number and they are now tricky to mine because they've found so many. The moment quantum computing comes through (or cheaper energy and processing) it'll be like cranking open the printing press. With the proviso that I think Bitcoin is in a bubble right now, "quantum computing" is not a valid reason to dismiss cryptocurrencies. There are already quantum-resistant encryption techniques in existence and, by the time quantum computers actually exist, more and better techniques are likely to have been found. Ethereum will soon allow for any encryption algorithm to be swapped in; Bitcoin doesn't but could hard-fork if necessary. (And there is already a minor altcoin devoted to being quantum resistant so if that tech works, there's nothing to stop it being integrated into the technologies with the existing network effects....) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
locky82 Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 If this starts to happen won't the government be all over bitcoin using money laundering laws? Then the knock on effect will be bit coin losing its appeal as vehicle to hide and move 'real' money from the authorities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 3 hours ago, Darby Ram said: With the proviso that I think Bitcoin is in a bubble right now, "quantum computing" is not a valid reason to dismiss cryptocurrencies. There are already quantum-resistant encryption techniques in existence and, by the time quantum computers actually exist, more and better techniques are likely to have been found. Ethereum will soon allow for any encryption algorithm to be swapped in; Bitcoin doesn't but could hard-fork if necessary. (And there is already a minor altcoin devoted to being quantum resistant so if that tech works, there's nothing to stop it being integrated into the technologies with the existing network effects....) My point was about BitCoin, I'm not really too big on these things other than to say I think the IP behind these is where the value is (and that's not what people are buying with the coins). BitCoin's perceived value is on it's platform, it being the first mover (or at least teh most well known mover) and the rarity value. The rarity is underpinned by virtue of the fact that each coin effectively has a serial number that's a prime number. Prime numbers are mined by computers. At the margins now it costs so much to mine the next prime number that it costs more in electricity and processing power than the coin is worth so supply stops. If quantum computing comes along and makes mega powerful processing super quick, efficient and cheap then you suddenly have a flood of new prime numbers. Quantum might be able to hack or not, who knows? But that's not my point. But on your point - "if that tech works" is pretty important. I guess they wont know for sure until someone comes along with a quantum computer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiltedjen Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 The mining difficulty changes to keep the supply under control. and there’s only 21 million bitcoins anyway. a super powerful quantum computing solution would cause the mining difficulty to jump rapidly. But would not create a massive injection of coins.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiltedjen Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 2 hours ago, locky82 said: If this starts to happen won't the government be all over bitcoin using money laundering laws? Then the knock on effect will be bit coin losing its appeal as vehicle to hide and move 'real' money from the authorities. the risk governments take is by trying to ban it, while the rest of the world does not, basically shuts down an industry, leaving others to profit. no country would shut down a lucrative industry, you can still tax bitcoin at the point of conversion to fiat. So perhaps not the person buying in bitcoin but the person accepting bitcoin to then convert to fiat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrFlay Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 There would be a big capital gains tax bill for a uk resident buying that house in bitcoin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Quote Mr Casson added: “We are essentially taking a risk, with wild fluctuations in the exchange rate, but we see that the property market is changing and we want to be the first to embrace that change. Yes, Mr Casson, the UK property market is changing. It's crashing uncontrollably! And your worthless stunt isn't going to alter that reality in any way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 11 hours ago, jiltedjen said: this is a bit of a gimmic, but the day will come when houses cost 0.001 BTC. If a house costs $100,000 or 0.0001 bitcoins then that would mean the price of bitcoin had increased to $100m! Assume 20 million bitcoins in existence at some point in the future (the other million having been lost). Then at a price of $200m the value of all bitcoins is $2000 trillion. This is a lot more than the total world wealth, so this would definitely constitute a bubble. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamoMucci Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 (edited) http://news.sky.com/story/from-two-pizzas-to-a-17m-mansion-bubble-fears-over-bitcoins-soaring-value-11090760 Sky News: Bitcoin is in a bubble. Exchange it for London property. Sky News website took a momentary break from its avalanche of anti-Brexit slanted headlines and commentary today to lend its expertise to those wishing to hear about the housing market. "If you do have a few thousand Bitcoin spare, and were looking to cash out - well, a very large house, made out of bricks and mortar, might be just the thing." It is bricks and mortar after all! (No mention of the land that bricks and mortar sits upon of course. It is only journalists who write these articles after all, not competent people.) Edited October 21, 2017 by AdamoMucci Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Bitcoin pretty much completely fails the KYC regs. I can't see how a solicitor could sign it through. Even if you had £375k in bitcoin and sold them to fund the purchase, your cash would fail the regs.  Now, that isn't an insurmountable problem -- you could get a mortgage, then pay off the mortgage using the bitcoin sale, but that wouldn't be buying the house with bitcoins, just paying off the mortgage with them. As it stands, bitcoin->house seems a difficult legal journey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 Had to laugh at the piece on Sky News about this - they were at pains to point out the bubbly nature of bitcoin at the moment (can't keep going up forever) yet completely failed to comment on the nature of the property bubble. Strange, that .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted October 21, 2017 Share Posted October 21, 2017 21 hours ago, Odin said: But it won't, there are bigger players who will have their own separate blockchain-alike that will be backed with more "stuff" making it more useful. Bitcoin itself will be dead the moment quantum computing is viable and this is already on its own moore's law like growth path China are supposedly already working on a quantum blockchain (which I can only guess combats that known flaw) with anything based on non-quantum cryptographic technology. Bitcoin has a lifetime!   It won't last forever. It is unlikely a house will cost 0.001. Agree 100%. Its blockchain thats going to endure...not bitcoin. I've recently seen a presentation proposing the use of blockchain to manage a global supply chain. My employer uses webchat bots on its website. Apparently this is just one application of an underlying AI technology (IBM's Watson) which is soon going to be used to take notes during meetings instead of appointing a notetaker. This is the slow creep of AI and other technologies into the workplace, and over time there will be more and more applications of this kind of technology that shaves off jobs or parts of jobs.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 21 hours ago, Kosmin said: If a house costs $100,000 or 0.0001 bitcoins then that would mean the price of bitcoin had increased to $100m! Assume 20 million bitcoins in existence at some point in the future (the other million having been lost). Then at a price of $200m the value of all bitcoins is $2000 trillion. This is a lot more than the total world wealth, so this would definitely constitute a bubble. Whoah, whoah. Don't talk bitcoin down. It provides a valuable service of making money for the early investors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyh Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2017 at 11:37 PM, adarmo said: +1 Bitcoin's only grasp at value is rarity through the prime number serial number and they are now tricky to mine because they've found so many. The moment quantum computing comes through (or cheaper energy and processing) it'll be like cranking open the printing press. Do you know anything about Bitcoin? It is not fiat, you cant crank up the printing presses and make as many as you want with more computer power, and you can't increase or decrease the rate of "mining" by much because of the difficultly adjustment algorhythm. Firstly there will only ever be 21 million whole Bitcoins, although each bitcoin is divisible into 8 decimal places, which is a Satoshi. So when they are all mined long after we are all dead there will be 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshi's (2.1 Quadrillion , or 2100 Trillion. Current worldwide debt is $200 Trillion, so you can see Bitcoin is divisable enough to swallow up the World debt over 10 x once all are mined. Still, if we ever get anywhere near 1 Satoshi = $1 , then anyone holding just 1 BTC now will have a net fiat worth of $100 Million, and my net worth would be $530 Million. Sweeet!  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markyh Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 6:45 AM, locky82 said: If this starts to happen won't the government be all over bitcoin using money laundering laws? Then the knock on effect will be bit coin losing its appeal as vehicle to hide and move 'real' money from the authorities. You know Bitcoin is now Legal tender in Japan right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adarmo Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 39 minutes ago, markyh said: Do you know anything about Bitcoin? It is not fiat, you cant crank up the printing presses and make as many as you want with more computer power, and you can't increase or decrease the rate of "mining" by much because of the difficultly adjustment algorhythm. Firstly there will only ever be 21 million whole Bitcoins, although each bitcoin is divisible into 8 decimal places, which is a Satoshi. So when they are all mined long after we are all dead there will be 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshi's (2.1 Quadrillion , or 2100 Trillion. Current worldwide debt is $200 Trillion, so you can see Bitcoin is divisable enough to swallow up the World debt over 10 x once all are mined. Still, if we ever get anywhere near 1 Satoshi = $1 , then anyone holding just 1 BTC now will have a net fiat worth of $100 Million, and my net worth would be $530 Million. Sweeet!  TBH no i didn't know about the 21 million limit. That's interesting because what happens when people start losing coins? CAn you make more but there would only ever be a maximum of 21 million? Is the system quick and scaleable enough to enable everyone in the world to use the coins as a currency and replace the billions of payments that take place every day? Sure - I might 'make' money out of it just like someone could have made money out of the property bubble, or the dotcom bubble, or the tulip bubble or the south sea etc etc. I'd not buy BitCoins any more than I'd buy gold. I much prefer revenue generating assets. My view of all the coins is that while I like the theory of not having fiat (although there's some serious monetary issues around not having control of the money supply) at the moment the reason for prices growth is gambling by the Chinese. Gambling is illegal in China but they love it. It shows up with over valuations and volatility in their stock and housing markets. I do not agree with your thinking. For one, worldwide debt doesn't require that many dollars/pounds etc to be in existence. There could only be one dollar in existence and someone might owe more than that. I wish you luck though.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted October 22, 2017 Share Posted October 22, 2017 (edited) 20 hours ago, regprentice said: Agree 100%. Its blockchain thats going to endure...not bitcoin. A blockchain needs a high value token so that network participants are incentivised to keep the chain immutable and only updated by consensus. Without consensus by effort (Proof Of Work) or value (Proof Of Stake) a blockchain is pointless. The USP of blockchain is decentralised consensus, everything else (distributed transactions, distributed storage, distributed computation etc) can be done much more efficiently by other means.  Edited October 22, 2017 by goldbug9999 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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