Errol Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 17 minutes ago, kzb said: I still don't understand how an organisation with many £ billions in government income streams can be said to be bankrupt. On the contrary it has massive income potential. They underbid on the contracts - meaning there is no way they can do them for price stated and would be forced to provide the service to their own detriment (or not, as the case turned out). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 17 minutes ago, Calcutta said: Once self driving little Noddy Uber cars are a viable option then passenger railways are finished. There will always be a demand for rail travel. Plenty of other reasons to choose it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 56 minutes ago, Ash4781 said: Interesting. I wonder if they were pushing their margin problems down the chain ? One example I saw re cash flow management was payment terms at 120days. Are their capital builds are upto standard. I guess that might come out later? Who knows may the strongest survive and build up capital and growth over the long-term, avoiding debt financing purchase creaming.......survival of the fittest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 17 minutes ago, Errol said: There will always be a demand for rail travel. Plenty of other reasons to choose it. I also think the self-driving cars on public roads a lot further off than people imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, regprentice said: My colleague told me that the train company would save money if, on its night trains, it offered every customer a chauffeur driven Rolls Royce instead of actually running the train. I think they were doing this at Preston station a few years ago. Cancelling evening trains on local services and phoning up for taxis for the few passengers. Almost certainly cheaper than running the actual trains. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warwick-Watcher Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, regprentice said: An ex colleague of mine held a senior finance position in one of the northern train companies. The train company had undertaken a number of surveys and studies and consistently found that its activities made no economic sense. the £300mn for a mile of track above makes that point. My colleague told me that the train company would save money if, on its night trains, it offered every customer a chauffeur driven Rolls Royce instead of actually running the train. In a brainstorming session one member of staff had proposed pulling up all the rails, tarmacing the railway and offering it to bus companies and haulage companies as an alternative to the road network. That was proposed as the best and most efficient use of the infrastructure. I wonder what the position is for Scottish Rail? According to the Scottish Government in 2015 they spent 447 million on fees to Network Rail and 314 million to Abellio/Scotrail for the rail services. There were 78 million passengers - so each one cost about 10 quid - presumably it's profitable as each ticket must cost at least 10 quid, surely? Borders Railway - Midlothian to Edinburgh - a bargain at 294 million capital cost (2012 values) to reinstate an existing rail route - 30 miles long. 10 million quid a mile - WTF? Ever wonder why Britain is bankrupt? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 What I would like to know is why everything that needs to be built has to take so long, cost so much....over-run and cost ever more......not only the cost of building it, also the ongoing rents charged to maintain it? A good well run comfortable, reliable and affordable train service at the right price in the right places has got to be good for everyone......people do not buy what they feel to be expensive when at the moment there are better alternatives.........again I do not trust the self-drive cars, that will force many more to be priced out of transport......what company would invest in it unless they can collect their investment into the road infrastructure required paid back many times over by us, who collectively now own the roads and can freely use them, to be turned over to private companies to rent them out/charge tolls to us......their pay back many times over? ......... choices being removed not created? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calcutta Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Errol said: There will always be a demand for rail travel. Plenty of other reasons to choose it. I love trains as much as the next loser but tbf I prefere the ones I'm allowed to hang out of the door of and not be stuck in what is basically a carpeted chemical toilet. There's simply no need for them, one tap on the phone and in ten mins there's Noddy, put my shit in, open a beer and do 70mph with zero accidents or traffic jams all the way to the door of my destination. No wages or licence fees to worry about, insurance dirt cheap, zero emissions so low tax. Automated electric car could do the London run from here for a couple of quid instead of the fifty the train costs. They're just not a viable business going forward, I'm surprised more of the schmucks upto their necks in it aren't scheming for Corbyn to nationalise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul77 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 As the trading on LSE is suspended, does anyone know what has happened to all the shorts? Are they all closed by the broker or left open, potentially forever? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 50 minutes ago, Warwick-Watcher said: I wonder what the position is for Scottish Rail? According to the Scottish Government in 2015 they spent 447 million on fees to Network Rail and 314 million to Abellio/Scotrail for the rail services. There were 78 million passengers - so each one cost about 10 quid - presumably it's profitable as each ticket must cost at least 10 quid, surely? Borders Railway - Midlothian to Edinburgh - a bargain at 294 million capital cost (2012 values) to reinstate an existing rail route - 30 miles long. 10 million quid a mile - WTF? Ever wonder why Britain is bankrupt? And only because the Victorians built the original infrastructure so well back in the days that most of it was ready to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, ccc said: And only because the Victorians built the original infrastructure so well back in the days that most of it was ready to use. The 25 miles of Stockton to Darlington railway in 1830 cost £120,000 (12 million today or £480,000 per mile in today's money). HS2 with the modern Public Infrastructure companies is costing 100 billion for 140 miles or714 million pounds per mile. About 1,500 times more expensive in real terms. The Irish navies without their plant, diversity officers, middle management, team away day games and public enquiries were bloody deprived. Edited January 16, 2018 by crashmonitor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 40 minutes ago, ccc said: And only because the Victorians built the original infrastructure And went bust, their dot com boom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crashmonitor Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Fence said: And went bust, their dot com boom! Had the legacy benfit for nearly 200 years for a thousandth of what it costs today to build in real terms as per my previous post. Edited January 16, 2018 by crashmonitor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrink Proof Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 minutes ago, crashmonitor said: The 25 miles of Stockton to Darlington railway in 1830 cost £120,000 (12 million today or £480,000 per mile in today's money). HS2 with the modern Public Infrastructure companies is costing 100 billion for 140 miles or714 million pounds per mile. About 1,500 times more expensive in real terms. The Irish navies without their plant, diversity officers, middle management, team away day games and public enquiries were bloody deprived. The guys who built the Stockton & Darlington line in the 1820s probably didn't have to install computerised train protection systems, modern signalling, overhead electrification and associated infrastructure, or even flush toilets on the stations. Not that the public infrastructure companies aren't keen to rip off the taxpayer left, right and centre, but it's hardly a straightforward comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ash4781 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Fence said: Remember Tescos? Which bit - >horse meat scandal >accounting irregularities >payment terms changes for suppliers I actually really rate Dave Lewis at Tesco. A real surprise for me. Not an easy thing to rebuild as I think the previous head would have taken them into the abyss. Edited January 16, 2018 by Ash4781 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fence Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 2 minutes ago, Ash4781 said: Which bit - >horse meat scandal >accounting irregularities >payment terms changes for suppliers I actually really rate Dave Lewis at Tesco. A real surprise for me. Not an easy thing to rebuild as I think the previous head would have taken them into the abyss. Time will tell but "screwing suppliers" will suffice for now! Although they may well be horse meat by now! And it is the building trade! Disclosure: lost 50% on my Tesco's shares but I really am not bitter, just lazy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, Shrink Proof said: The guys who built the Stockton & Darlington line in the 1820s probably didn't have to install computerised train protection systems, modern signalling, overhead electrification and associated infrastructure, or even flush toilets on the stations. Not that the public infrastructure companies aren't keen to rip off the taxpayer left, right and centre, but it's hardly a straightforward comparison. It was cutting edge at the time. Todays will - if it goes ahead - be similar. Over the time period considering technological advances /automation / robotics / general power tools etc - the costs should be very roughly comparable IMO. They clearly are not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shrink Proof Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Don't get me wrong. The last thing I'm doing is defending the likes of Carillion. Just saying that there's more to it than 1820s = £x and 2010s = £y. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, ccc said: It was cutting edge at the time. Todays will - if it goes ahead - be similar. Over the time period considering technological advances /automation / robotics / general power tools etc - the costs should be very roughly comparable IMO. They clearly are not. Do bear in mind though they paid with their lives. The navvy death rates were horrendous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Aye of course. It does look like compared to back then though its still incredibly expensive today in comparison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Errol Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 (edited) Witness statement filed at High Court by Carillion CEO is doing the rounds. It’s fascinating. Reveals that expected recovery for creditors in liquidation is 0.8p - 6.6p in the £. Ouch. - More on Guardian website. Edited January 16, 2018 by Errol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funn3r Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 4 hours ago, Errol said: There will always be a demand for rail travel. Plenty of other reasons to choose it. Last Friday I made a journey from my home in SE England to the NW. I set off at 08:40 and at 11:40, three hours later and on my fourth train and two longish walks, I noticed I was 54 miles from my house. You can see why people prefer cars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieAndy Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 Also from online... Carillion had just £29m in cash when it collapsed -Owed £1.29bn to its banks (higher than previous guidance of £900m)-PwC and EY rejected requests to be administrators amid concerns they would not be paid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NuBrit Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, Errol said: Witness statement filed at High Court by Carillion CEO is doing the rounds. It’s fascinating. Reveals that expected recovery for creditors in liquidation is 0.8p - 6.6p in the £. Ouch. - More on Guardian website. 3 minutes ago, GeordieAndy said: Also from online... Carillion had just £29m in cash when it collapsed -Owed £1.29bn to its banks (higher than previous guidance of £900m)-PwC and EY rejected requests to be administrators amid concerns they would not be paid These numbers are even worse than anyone feared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bluestone59 Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, GeordieAndy said: Also from online... Carillion had just £29m in cash when it collapsed -Owed £1.29bn to its banks (higher than previous guidance of £900m)-PwC and EY rejected requests to be administrators amid concerns they would not be paid Isn't or wasn't it a criminal offence for directors to allow trading to continue when knowingly insolvent? F. A. Laker for a start. Never heard of any big name prosecutions though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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