Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[winkie]

1 hour ago, Bob8 said:

I am not sure I agree.

I think it is more about perspective and alienation from modern society. 

I mentioned several times about the three questions to predict:

- Are you skeptical of man-made global warming? (skeptical of complicated issues needing complex solutions, accepting of right wing press)

- Has your home town transformed since you were twenty four? (age combined with alienation)

- Has modern society lost proper respect for people like you? (not selfish, but alienation)

The biggest factor might be obesity. There should be no shame or stigma with this, but there is and that is why it is key. Fat people are sneered at on the whole and will often have seen that happen since they were young. It is another alienation factor. 

Most people on both sides can be predicted with these factors that are little to do with intellect, moral worth, or one side in particular being more gullible than the other.

I think people will think other people are to blame for their lives that didn't work out as expected, hardships, expectations, especially young men, only recent history has seen women have a different role in society rightly or wrongly.....they are the competition on top of seeing home towns changing rapidly with new and different people moving in.......fast changes to society, very many pressures on young men and families........The fat thing is more about, moving less, sitting in front of screens and snacking on unhealthy foods, sweets and sweet drinks.....then there is alcohol full of calories, more drinking at home than ever....and fewer people now smoke, so eat instead, smoking is an appetite depressant.  

The EU was used as the reason why life no longer working, Brexit was used as the scapegoat for all that is wrong in the country.....a protest vote, to say something is wrong.

[pig]

4 hours ago, Bob8 said:

I am not sure I agree.

I think it is more about perspective and alienation from modern society. 

I mentioned several times about the three questions to predict:

- Are you skeptical of man-made global warming? (skeptical of complicated issues needing complex solutions, accepting of right wing press)

- Has your home town transformed since you were twenty four? (age combined with alienation)

- Has modern society lost proper respect for people like you? (not selfish, but alienation)

The biggest factor might be obesity. There should be no shame or stigma with this, but there is and that is why it is key. Fat people are sneered at on the whole and will often have seen that happen since they were young. It is another alienation factor. 

Most people on both sides can be predicted with these factors that are little to do with intellect, moral worth, or one side in particular being more gullible than the other.

Yes but then certain types of lies were targeted at those demographics. Essentially what you are saying is similar to claiming that the poor are more likely to be racist, which I think would be controversial, when its actually the mechanism for grooming them into racism that may be distinctive rather than the cohort itself.

[Bob8]

1 minute ago, pig said:

Yes but then certain types of lies were targeted at those demographics. Essentially what you are saying is similar to claiming that the poor are more likely to be racist, which I think would be controversial, when its actually the mechanism for grooming them into racism that may be distinctive rather than the cohort itself.

Absolutely not. 

Personally, I think the people who have lost out most relatively are most likely to be alienated from the modern world. Race will play a part in that, but it does not equate to racism. 

THe point is circumstances and personality seem more likely to dictate than intellect or moral fibre.

[pig]

36 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

Absolutely not. 

Personally, I think the people who have lost out most relatively are most likely to be alienated from the modern world. Race will play a part in that, but it does not equate to racism. 

THe point is circumstances and personality seem more likely to dictate than intellect or moral fibre.

The point is lies are targeted. Lies and targets do not exist in independent vacuums.

Its not enough to say people voted Brexit because of who they are - racist poor people are not racist simply because they are poor, you also need to look at the nature of lies they were told and how they were told.

To the point lies can be diametrically aligned in content to similar demographics. Compare and contrast Trump vs Johnsons advocacy of vaccines to their respective supporters. Reductio absurdum, one (struggling to) wave the Confederate Flag the other the Union Jack.

[Bob8]

2 minutes ago, pig said:

The point is lies are targeted. Lies and targets do not exist in independent vacuums.

Its not enough to say people voted Brexit because of who they are - racist poor people are not racist simply because they are poor, you also need to look at the nature of lies they were told and how they were told.

To the point lies can be diametrically aligned in content to similar demographics. Compare and contrast Trump vs Johnsons advocacy of vaccines to their respective supporters. Reductio absurdum, one (struggling to) wave the Confederate Flag the other the Union Jack.

True. 

When I say circumstances and personality, that includes reading the right wing press and being very accepting of what they are told. Which is a bit misleading. 

I am not stating that poor people are racist. When someone is mixed race, we do not assume their parents must have been posh. 

[pig]

18 minutes ago, Bob8 said:

True. 

When I say circumstances and personality, that includes reading the right wing press and being very accepting of what they are told. Which is a bit misleading. 

I am not stating that poor people are racist. When someone is mixed race, we do not assume their parents must have been posh. 

Yes you are not stating that.

The point is @winkie is right, the Brexit was based on the proverbial pyramid of piffle, founded in UKIP, addressed to a demographic perhaps as you described. That demographic just happens to be more susceptible to a type of lie similar to 'poor people' being more susceptible to certain methods of whipping up xenophobia.

[24gray24]

Christ, 5 years later and you still have no clue why people voted brexit. 

And meant it. 

You still think it's some failure of intellect, or moral fibre, or grasp of economic realities. 

Can't a single one of you come up with an answer that is none of the above? 

[thecrashingisles]

10 hours ago, pig said:

Yes you are not stating that.

The point is @winkie is right, the Brexit was based on the proverbial pyramid of piffle, founded in UKIP, addressed to a demographic perhaps as you described. That demographic just happens to be more susceptible to a type of lie similar to 'poor people' being more susceptible to certain methods of whipping up xenophobia.

This is a very disparaging way to talk about traditional Labour voters.

[pig]

5 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

This is a very disparaging way to talk about traditional Labour voters.

Oh really ? Much easier to whip up xenophobia among traditional Tory voters lol. Easier to program, harder to deprogram

 

[thecrashingisles]

6 minutes ago, pig said:

Oh really ? Much easier to whip up xenophobia among traditional Tory voters lol. Easier to program, harder to deprogram

If you look at voter demographics, the people you are talking about tend to vote Labour.

Even in 1997, the Tories would have won if you just took the votes of ABC1 professionals, but among the "susceptible" DEs Labour led 59% to 21%, giving them a landslide.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-1997

Edited May 26, 2023 by thecrashingisles

[pig]

1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said:

If you look at voter demographics, the people you are talking about tend to vote Labour.

Even in 1997, the Tories would have won if you just took the votes of ABC1 professionals, but among the "susceptible" DEs Labour led 59% to 21%, giving them a landslide.

https://www.ipsos.com/en-uk/how-britain-voted-1997

I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

My point was that lies were devised to nudge people in a direction. Its not enough to say Bob from Stockport is pre-disposed to eat Mars Bars, its that marketing targets Bob from Stockport

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, pig said:

I don't really know what point you are trying to make.

My point was that lies were devised to nudge people in a direction. Its not enough to say Bob from Stockport is pre-disposed to eat Mars Bars, its that marketing targets Bob from Stockport

Either you respect Bob from Stockport's vote or you don't.

You can't arbitrarily decide that in one particular election he must have been manipulated and therefore his vote is tainted. Unless of course you want to argue against a system that depends on persuading Bob from Stockport?

[Bob8]

17 hours ago, Bob8 said:

Absolutely not. 

Personally, I think the people who have lost out most relatively are most likely to be alienated from the modern world. Race will play a part in that, but it does not equate to racism. 

The point is circumstances and personality seem more likely to dictate than intellect or moral fibre.

 

5 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

Christ, 5 years later and you still have no clue why people voted brexit. 

And meant it. 

You still think it's some failure of intellect, or moral fibre, or grasp of economic realities. 

Can't a single one of you come up with an answer that is none of the above? 

I think the issue might be that you are illiterate.

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

18 hours ago, pig said:

Yes but then certain types of lies were targeted at those demographics. Essentially what you are saying is similar to claiming that the poor are more likely to be racist, which I think would be controversial, when its actually the mechanism for grooming them into racism that may be distinctive rather than the cohort itself.

 

Cambridge Analytica

[24gray24]

2 hours ago, Bob8 said:

 

I think the issue might be that you are illiterate.

Ha ha.

So when you write "more likely" you mean not at all!

And when you write "personality and circumstance"  you mean people less literate than you! 

Wel, well, well...

[Bob8]

23 hours ago, Bob8 said:

Absolutely not. 

Personally, I think the people who have lost out most relatively are most likely to be alienated from the modern world. Race will play a part in that, but it does not equate to racism. 

THe point is circumstances and personality seem more likely to dictate than intellect or moral fibre.

 

12 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

Christ, 5 years later and you still have no clue why people voted brexit. 

And meant it. 

You still think it's some failure of intellect, or moral fibre, or grasp of economic realities. 

Can't a single one of you come up with an answer that is none of the above? 

 

3 hours ago, 24gray24 said:

Ha ha.

So when you write "more likely" you mean not at all!

And when you write "personality and circumstance"  you mean people less literate than you! 

Wel, well, well...

Be less stupid. I was specifically stating it is about personality and circumstance. I think you are most likely stupid, but that is because you are struggling with this. I do not think moral fibre nor intellect are hte important difference, which is why I wrote thet.

Be less stupid.

[pig]

11 hours ago, thecrashingisles said:

Either you respect Bob from Stockport's vote or you don't.

You can't arbitrarily decide that in one particular election he must have been manipulated and therefore his vote is tainted. Unless of course you want to argue against a system that depends on persuading Bob from Stockport?

Yes I can look at past elections and see what went wrong. That is literally the essence of Democracy.

You cannot arbitrarily decide, as Brexiters incessantly  insist, that one vote, beyond any democratic vote we've ever had is beyond question reason analysis debate or even reversal. That literally is anti-democratic.

And Bob from Stockport can choose his Mars bars. He can choose his 5 a day. But you can't stop us uncovering the psy-ops and addictive substances employed to crush his will and therefore his very act of choosing.

[rollover]

Brexit was historic economic error which pushed up inflation

Brexit was a “historic economic error” which has hurt the UK economy and helped to drive up inflation, Larry Summers, the former US Treasury secretary has warned.

Summers told Radio 4’s Today programme that UK economic policy has been “substantially flawed for some years,” and singles out the exit from the European Union as a factor driving up costs.

I think Brexit will be remembered as a historic economic error that reduced the competitiveness of the UK economy, put downward pressure on the pound and upwards pressure on prices, limited imports of goods and limited in some ways the supply of labour. All of which contributed to higher inflation.

[A report last week showed that Britain’s departure from the European Union has accounted for about a third of the increase in food bills for households since 2019, equivalent to about £250.]

Guardian

[Dweller]

14 minutes ago, rollover said:

Brexit was historic economic error which pushed up inflation

Brexit was a “historic economic error” which has hurt the UK economy and helped to drive up inflation, Larry Summers, the former US Treasury secretary has warned.

Summers told Radio 4’s Today programme that UK economic policy has been “substantially flawed for some years,” and singles out the exit from the European Union as a factor driving up costs.

I think Brexit will be remembered as a historic economic error that reduced the competitiveness of the UK economy, put downward pressure on the pound and upwards pressure on prices, limited imports of goods and limited in some ways the supply of labour. All of which contributed to higher inflation.

[A report last week showed that Britain’s departure from the European Union has accounted for about a third of the increase in food bills for households since 2019, equivalent to about £250.]

Guardian

Add the above to these and then the full border by the Autumn pushing up prices and inflation further so are we honestly going to have to wait another decade before anyone can say STOP enough is enough :

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/as-rishi-sunak-talks-asylum-with-eu-in-moldova-experts-say-a-post-brexit-deal-may-see-more-migrants-in-the-uk-2377839?ITO=newsnow

As Rishi Sunak talks asylum with EU in Moldova, experts say a post-Brexit deal may see more migrants in the UK

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/international-laughing-stock-shipment-of-beano-comics-sent-to-aus-and-nz-349885/

‘International laughing stock’: Shipment of Beano comics sent to Aus and NZ

According to the government’s own statistics, while the deal may boost New Zealand’s GDP by $970 million or around 0.3 per cent, it is likely to add no value to the UK’s gross domestic product – and could actually shrink the UK economy.

[Dweller]

https://www.indy100.com/news/australia-mocks-brexit-british-export

Australia is quite literally laughing at Britain over the failures of Brexit

[winkie]

On 27/05/2023 at 04:43, Mikhail Liebenstein said:

 

Cambridge Analytica

Good point, how much input did they have?......would also be to Russia's benefit to break up the EU..... strength together, weaker apart......divide and conquer.

[rollover]

Only 18% of leave voters think Brexit has been a success

Survey seven years on from referendum shows many believe politicians have let them down.

Seven years on from the referendum campaign, the pollsters Public First asked more than 4,000 leavers how they felt now about Brexit. Less than a fifth of them – 18%.

With inflation stuck at historic highs and GDP stagnating, economists have increasingly warned about the continuing impact of Brexit on trade and investment. Less than a third of the leave voters polled (29%) believe Brexit has had a negative economic impact, however.

Among those leavers who believe Brexit has not gone well, many blame politicians for handling it badly – a narrative espoused by the former Ukip leader Nigel Farage, who recently claimed that “Brexit has failed”.

Guardian

[Huggy]

61% think [Brexit] will turn out well in the end.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/jun/22/leave-voters-brexit-success-poll

We're barely in the third year of Brexit (excluding Covid). What is it with Remainers and their randomly demanded short termism? Is 2 years a good timeframe to invest in equities for example?

Of course, we are happily enjoying some of those benefits today, which makes arguing for the benefits a lot easier, but I think it could take decades to get the real juicy ones. You know, like investments

[rollover]

To fly a Ukrainian flag is not an issue, but ..., but ..., but ...

London mayor’s office ‘banned’ from flying EU flag on referendum anniversary

Ministers have been accused of criminalising the flying of the European Union flag on government buildings in England after London’s City Hall was told it could be prosecuted for displaying it on the anniversary of the Brexit referendum.

Without so-called advertising consent from Newham council, City Hall, which is the headquarters of the GLA and is where Sadiq Khan, the capital’s mayor, is based, would have been liable to criminal prosecution under the amended town and country planning (control of advertisements) regulations.

“With over a million people calling London their home from other European countries it’s extraordinary that the government has effectively banned the European flag being flown without going through a long and bureaucratic planning process.

Guardian

[rollover]

Boris Johnson’s removal has cleared the way for better Brexit relationship

The EU’s former Brexit chief negotiator calls for closer ties as polls show British public think Brexit has failed.

A closer Brexit relationship is possible now Boris Johnson has been removed as prime minister, Michel Barnier has said as polling on the seventh anniversary of the referendum shows voters believe Britain's exit from the EU isn't working.

Just one in three voters now think leaving the EU was a good idea, while four in five say that Britain should develop tighter links with Brussels, the surveys show.

Independent