Confusion of VIs Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, ccc said: A permit system we are in charge of. Just like we currently are with non EU migration, and yet the numbers go up. What you ignore is that the government has already chosen not to use the controls it already has, once you realise that it is illogical to think that leaving the EU will make any significant difference (hopefully we will stop benefits tourism but that's probably about it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said: Not defeatist, waited for Cameron's negations, would have preferred negotiations ...EU's not for turning, ...time to move on. Time will tell... hint: WTO/UNECE etc. 10's of days according to the USA Just because Cameron failed (after not trying very hard) doesn't mean it was impossible; unless you are at heart a defeatist. Why would you want a trade deal with the US, I don't recall you being a TTIP fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 5 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Just like we currently are with non EU migration, and yet the numbers go up. What you ignore is that the government has already chosen not to use the controls it already has, once you realise that it is illogical to think that leaving the EU will make any significant difference (hopefully we will stop benefits tourism but that's probably about it). With non EU and EU migrants as well, let's not go ignoring facts. UK.gov has failed to regulate both. UK.gov has, and has had, legal powers to enforce both communities of migrants; sanction & expel. They haven't. Scared kids and teary-eyed parents being carted into black vans sells papers, and also gets MP's unelected. Nor will they post-Brexit. Can we still blame the EU then? What about the Scots? Or poor people in general? But not Westminster surely? It's going to take a lot of you a long time and some serious consolidation of your views to realise that. Especially when you 'discover' that many these 11th hour 'new' trade deals that will be steam-rolled through parliament have actually been languishing in the back rooms of power, out of sight, out of mind, for decades. Set up by industry, bankers, politicians, clear of public view. Not democratic at all. Brexit. Same as the old boss. etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 23 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Just like we currently are with non EU migration, and yet the numbers go up. What you ignore is that the government has already chosen not to use the controls it already has, once you realise that it is illogical to think that leaving the EU will make any significant difference (hopefully we will stop benefits tourism but that's probably about it). The populace have given a very clear indication they are not happy about the level of immigration. Politicians are stupid - but they're not that stupid. Immigration has to drop drastically - or the Tories are toast. And they know it. It's all incredibly simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onlyme2 Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 3 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: As to China not playing fair, since when have trade deals been about playing fair. They are about power with the stronger countries always getting the better side of the deal. As the US is a past master of this it's a bit rich that they are now complaining about China. If we are to forge new trade deals as the Brexiteers, we will not be able to be picky about either who we do deals with or their terms. Unfortunately we can expect to see lots more of May sucking up to likes of Trump and Erdogan. Chinese companies can ship goods direct to doorstep for 75p upwards. The Chinese can stick a CE mark on a product it and save 1,000's or 10,000's in costs, liability cover and sleep without any worry. Fair and free market with the strongest dictating terms. LOL! We're mugs. And we've been mugged. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said: But if we actually enforced the existing FoM rules about being economically self sufficient we could reduce the numbers now. Instead we appear to be happy to let probably another 300k come before we leave and the drawbridge is pulled up - why is that? As to the immigrants coming to work they will still come under whatever permit system is put in place. AFAIK the majority of EU nationals do work and it is the higher wage levels plus in-work benefits that are the pull factor. TM has already stated they the UK will abide by the EU acquis until the leaving date. Immigration numbers have and will be controlled e.g. A rise in short-term ICT workers: Quote Over the same period, long-term (1 year or more) work-related visas granted to main applicants also rose, by 22% to 81,735 in the year ending December 2015 reflecting an increase in visas in the ‘short-term ICT’ category that were for exactly 365 or 366 days. https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/immigration-statistics-january-to-march-2016/summary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said: Just because Cameron failed (after not trying very hard) doesn't mean it was impossible; unless you are at heart a defeatist. Why would you want a trade deal with the US, I don't recall you being a TTIP fan. Evidently, since numerous other countries are now trying to get the EU to reform... Quote “In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing. The worst thing you can do is nothing.” ― Theodore Roosevelt The EU elite had, and still have, the opportunity to reform the EU but it appears they are hoping that the member countries' election will veer to the pro-EU side. Such a passive approach to the issues underlines why the EU is floundering like a beached whale. During the last seven months, the UK has been seeking new trade and relationship deals what have the EU done? Do you know what Trump did to the TPP? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, cashinmattress said: With non EU and EU migrants as well, let's not go ignoring facts. UK.gov has failed to regulate both. UK.gov has, and has had, legal powers to enforce both communities of migrants; sanction & expel. They haven't. Scared kids and teary-eyed parents being carted into black vans sells papers, and also gets MP's unelected. Nor will they post-Brexit. Can we still blame the EU then? What about the Scots? Or poor people in general? But not Westminster surely? It's going to take a lot of you a long time and some serious consolidation of your views to realise that. Especially when you 'discover' that many these 11th hour 'new' trade deals that will be steam-rolled through parliament have actually been languishing in the back rooms of power, out of sight, out of mind, for decades. Set up by industry, bankers, politicians, clear of public view. Not democratic at all. Brexit. Same as the old boss. etc... I think most Brexit posters have repeatedly stated that further reforms are required. If Brexit, Trump and forthcoming European elections have been dubbed as anti-establishment how does that fit in with your conspiracy theory? The remainian campaign is fuelled by the desire to keep the status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 27 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said: I think most Brexit posters have repeatedly stated that further reforms are required. If Brexit, Trump and forthcoming European elections have been dubbed as anti-establishment how does that fit in with your conspiracy theory? The remainian campaign is fuelled by the desire to keep the status quo. Conspiracy theory? Is it a conspiracy that UK.gov HAVE NOT used the legal authority they have NOW to deal with migration into the UK? Further reforms required? What? More than the ones that are already in place, but which are by in large NOT USED? Surely not? Is it also a conspiracy to say migrants, originating from wherever, have been scapegoated instead of putting the blame where it belongs? ie: Westminster? Or does posting in this thread mean you've become an honourary member of the Sheeple Splinter loony-bin brigade? Immigration is going up in the next decade, and the next decade, and the one after that, etc... A cursory analysis of the demographics of the UK states that categorically. You don't even need a secondary school education to figure this one out. Leave the management of human inflow/outflow to others, and you lot get on with your lives. There's plenty of ale at the pub. I guarantee that! Surely there's something else to turn your hate radars onto? Or is this such a fundamentally British value, to hate everybody? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Hating everybody is rather different from just being appalled at the mass immigration to this country from overseas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XswampyX Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 46 minutes ago, ccc said: Hating everybody is rather different from just being appalled at the mass immigration to this country from overseas. Yep. Typical remoaner tactic of escalating any 'other' viewpoint immediately to hate, Nazis & deathcamps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kzb Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Petition FOR Trump visit. Needs a lot more signatures to catch up with the anti-Trump petition but the total is ramping up fast. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/178844 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheeple Splinter Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, cashinmattress said: Conspiracy theory? Is it a conspiracy that UK.gov HAVE NOT used the legal authority they have NOW to deal with migration into the UK? Further reforms required? What? More than the ones that are already in place, but which are by in large NOT USED? Surely not? Is it also a conspiracy to say migrants, originating from wherever, have been scapegoated instead of putting the blame where it belongs? ie: Westminster? Or does posting in this thread mean you've become an honourary member of the Sheeple Splinter loony-bin brigade? Immigration is going up in the next decade, and the next decade, and the one after that, etc... A cursory analysis of the demographics of the UK states that categorically. You don't even need a secondary school education to figure this one out. Leave the management of human inflow/outflow to others, and you lot get on with your lives. There's plenty of ale at the pub. I guarantee that! Surely there's something else to turn your hate radars onto? Or is this such a fundamentally British value, to hate everybody? So no further defence or explanation of, " ...industry, bankers, politicians.. " conspiring in secret for years despite just 7 months of establishment upheaval? Definitely more reforms required to Westminster and, taking your example, population planning is at the top of my list. I agree about the failure of Westminster (Blair) and the EU (depletion of working age citizens in EE countries etc.) Off for a pint of IPA now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewingGrass Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Looks like young women are becoming scarcer as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewingGrass Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Done and rising at about 100/minute now 1800. 17 minutes ago, kzb said: Petition FOR Trump visit. Needs a lot more signatures to catch up with the anti-Trump petition but the total is ramping up fast. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/178844 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 4 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: Just like we currently are with non EU migration, and yet the numbers go up. What you ignore is that the government has already chosen not to use the controls it already has, once you realise that it is illogical to think that leaving the EU will make any significant difference (hopefully we will stop benefits tourism but that's probably about it). No ones ignoring that that`s the second step via the ballot box ,UKIP forced the referendum without wining a single seat they will have many net time around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, kzb said: Petition FOR Trump visit. Needs a lot more signatures to catch up with the anti-Trump petition but the total is ramping up fast. https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/178844 How stupid can we get... Spare a whole 80 minutes of your life to get caught up to the Don and what he's all about...hint.. its not America. I'll either put a vote on that ridiculous petition for: you are simply an idiot, or, you are a complete douchebag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Where is the "I don't give a fook about Trumps executive orders, fly him over for a state visit with all the bells on, he put Churchill back in the Oval Office, he is a friend of the UK, grow the ****** up and look at what liberals have done to the world" petition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 5 hours ago, kzb said: Watched the BBC parliament channel Brexit economics committee last night. Here are some interesting points: There is an association of 32 countries, within which aircraft parts are traded freely. We are in this grouping, and there should be no problem with Airbus parts being hit by trade restrictions. In the motor manufacturing sector, an issue for trade deals is country of origin. Usually, at least 55% of a vehicle has to be sourced from the stated country of origin. In the UK we are averaging only 41% currently. Germany manages 65%. So it depends how you look at it if you consider this is problem. Personally I think this can only be a good thing, because motor manufacturers will have to on-shore their supply chains to a greater extent, thus providing UK jobs. One MP stated that exports in goods exceeds that in services, which I was a bit surprised at. The CEOs of both Airbus and Nissan have previously said that if we end up outside of the single market/customs union the additional bureaucracy associated with the rules of origin and having to arrange work permits etc. is a bigger issue for them than tariffs. If they do decide to avoid this by rationalising their supply chains, I suspect they won't choose to move everything to the UK. Goods have always been traded internationally far more than services. Possibly because as services are much more profitable counties are more resistant to opening up their markets to foreign service providers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 hour ago, long time lurking said: UKIP forced the referendum Wait. What? Comedy gold? Next: Nigel Farage cures xenopobia? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Quite a good line today from Labour MP Mike Gapes who referred to "Theresa the Appeaser" http://www.itv.com/news/update/2017-01-30/labour-mp-accuses-pm-of-being-theresa-the-appeaser/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 57 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: The CEOs of both Airbus and Nissan have previously said that if we end up outside of the single market/customs union the additional bureaucracy associated with the rules of origin and having to arrange work permits etc. is a bigger issue for them than tariffs. If they do decide to avoid this by rationalising their supply chains, I suspect they won't choose to move everything to the UK. Goods have always been traded internationally far more than services. Possibly because as services are much more profitable counties are more resistant to opening up their markets to foreign service providers. Its the non tariff barriers thats if not more important...Most work on just-in-time rules...If anything holds parts back at ports | airports is where the main issues come from. AFAIK, manufactuers such as Mini in Oxford have a team that track these supplies. Any delay in the process can really screw things up..Its these sorts of issues that would cause a huge clusterfk if we slipped to WTO rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 5 hours ago, ccc said: The populace have given a very clear indication they are not happy about the level of immigration. Politicians are stupid - but they're not that stupid. Immigration has to drop drastically - or the Tories are toast. And they know it. It's all incredibly simple. The Tories are sitting pretty for the next two GEs at least. UKIP are not going to trouble them, if they do well it will be by cannibalising the Labor vote which is a bonus. They know immigration needs to be moved down the agenda, but that's not the same as having to drastically reduce it. I imagine they already have a plan for doing this. Three simple steps could reduce the headline figure by almost half would be 1 Stop benefits tourism (The only reason I can think why they haven't already stopped this is they are holding that back, so that when they do it they can say it is a result of Brexit). 2 Reintroduce the SAWS scheme to manage agricultural workers (this will have the benefit of knocking about 80,000 of the headline figures). 3 Exclude foreign students from the figures (there is no real justification for them being there in the first place). So you are half right it is simple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ccc Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 It's got to be noticeable to the man on the street. Otherwise the anger will continue to grow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 30 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: The Tories are sitting pretty for the next two GEs at least. UKIP are not going to trouble them, if they do well it will be by cannibalising the Labor vote which is a bonus. They know immigration needs to be moved down the agenda, but that's not the same as having to drastically reduce it. I imagine they already have a plan for doing this. Three simple steps could reduce the headline figure by almost half would be 1 Stop benefits tourism (The only reason I can think why they haven't already stopped this is they are holding that back, so that when they do it they can say it is a result of Brexit). 2 Reintroduce the SAWS scheme to manage agricultural workers (this will have the benefit of knocking about 80,000 of the headline figures). 3 Exclude foreign students from the figures (there is no real justification for them being there in the first place). So you are half right it is simple. The biggest part of our immigration (18%) comes from the fact we're signed up to the ECHR. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/09/17/if-you-think-brexit-will-bring-us-control-of-our-borders-you-are/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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