Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Confusion of VIs]

17 minutes ago, ccc said:

It's got to be noticeable to the man on the street. Otherwise the anger will continue to grow. 

I think the anger is as much led by what people see being reported as what they personally experience. Also the level of anger doesn't actually seem to be proportional to the number of immigrants in the community.

I live in Croydon where I imagine around 50% of the population are new or relatively recent immigrants and everyone seems to rub along ok, but when I go back to Blackpool which has relatively few migrants there is a bubbling anger which blames these largely non existent migrants for all aspects of the town's decline. I doubt they will get any happier if the migrants go home.       

 

   

[Confusion of VIs]

This article describes pretty well my fears about why us cozying up to Trump is likely to end in tears.

It's behind the paywall but can be accessed by Googling/Binging:    Donald Trump is a disaster for Brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/fde7616a-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263daf  

 

[XswampyX]

9 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

This article describes pretty well my fears about why us cozying up to Trump is likely to end in tears.

It's behind the paywall but can be accessed by Googling/Binging:    Donald Trump is a disaster for Brexit

https://www.ft.com/content/fde7616a-e6cf-11e6-967b-c88452263daf  

 

Says this man :-

tw@t face.

Quote

All good dramas involve the suspension of disbelief. So it was with Brexit. I went to bed at 4am on Friday depressed that Britain had voted to leave the EU. The following day my gloom only deepened. But then, belatedly, I realised that I have seen this film before. I know how it ends. And it does not end with the UK leaving Europe.

Any long-term observer of the EU should be familiar with the shock referendum result. In 1992 the Danes voted to reject the Maastricht treaty. The Irish voted to reject both the Nice treaty in 2001 and the Lisbon treaty in 2008.

And what happened in each case? The EU rolled ever onwards. The Danes and the Irish were granted some concessions by their EU partners. They staged a second referendum. And the second time around they voted to accept the treaty. So why, knowing this history, should anyone believe that Britain’s referendum decision is definitive?

Source :- https://www.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a

 

Edited January 31, 2017 by XswampyX

[the gardener]

2 minutes ago, XswampyX said:

Says this man :-

tw@t face.

Source :- https://www.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a

Big difference with our referendum. The others were rejecting an additional treaty but the UK rejected the EU in it's entirety. The concessions needed to square the circle this time would mean the EU would disintegrate. Bring it on.

[billybong]

3 hours ago, XswampyX said:

Says this man :-

tw@t face.

Source :- https://www.ft.com/content/8f2aca88-3c51-11e6-9f2c-36b487ebd80a

 

Heavy reliance on images of Cameron and Merkel - a losing pitch.  Even the background music wasn't convincing.  As for the suggestion that a temporary emergency brake on immigration is going to get voters to change their mind 

Edited January 31, 2017 by billybong

[billybong]

4 hours ago, ccc said:

It's got to be noticeable to the man on the street. Otherwise the anger will continue to grow. 

+1

In the last few years the increase has become more than noticeable - it's like a swamping.  If it was goods it would be termed dumping and British companies would be up in arms about it.

Edited January 31, 2017 by billybong

[ccc]

8 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I think the anger is as much led by what people see being reported as what they personally experience. Also the level of anger doesn't actually seem to be proportional to the number of immigrants in the community.

I live in Croydon where I imagine around 50% of the population are new or relatively recent immigrants and everyone seems to rub along ok, but when I go back to Blackpool which has relatively few migrants there is a bubbling anger which blames these largely non existent migrants for all aspects of the town's decline. I doubt they will get any happier if the migrants go home.       

 

   

Disagree. As another states above - we are being swamped. 

You think the 'anger' is driven by what's being reported ? What - by the media that's almost completely 'pro' immigration / diversity etc ?

No - it's being driven by people walking down the street and thinking they now live in a foreign country. 

[GrizzlyDave]

31 minutes ago, ccc said:

Disagree. As another states above - we are being swamped. 

You think the 'anger' is driven by what's being reported ? What - by the media that's almost completely 'pro' immigration / diversity etc ?

No - it's being driven by people walking down the street and thinking they now live in a foreign country. 

+1

TPTB can't spin what you see and experience with your own eyes. Despite their desire to!

The silent majority will continue to send the message at the ballot box.

"we are full"

[Pieman Pieface]

39 minutes ago, ccc said:

Disagree. As another states above - we are being swamped. 

You think the 'anger' is driven by what's being reported ? What - by the media that's almost completely 'pro' immigration / diversity etc ?

No - it's being driven by people walking down the street and thinking they now live in a foreign country. 

So the daily mail, sun, telegraph don't exist then?

face it, those people who are upset about immigration have barely ever seen an immigrant, unless you count seeing the polish section at Tescos. 

[ccc]

14 minutes ago, Pieman Pieface said:

So the daily mail, sun, telegraph don't exist then?

face it, those people who are upset about immigration have barely ever seen an immigrant, unless you count seeing the polish section at Tescos. 

Do you disagree the vast majority of UK media is pro immigration etc ?

As for your second point. There's no point even replying. 

Edited January 31, 2017 by ccc

[the gardener]

40 minutes ago, ccc said:

Do you disagree the vast majority of UK media is pro immigration etc ?

As for your second point. There's no point even replying. 

I'm off to Lidl later and I shall count the immigrants. Most of the checkout staff for a start (Katya is rather cute). If I don't hear them speaking then unless they are in tribal dress I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and count them as British.

I reckon it'll be 75% immigrant.

[Pieman Pieface]

1 hour ago, ccc said:

Do you disagree the vast majority of UK media is pro immigration etc ?

As for your second point. There's no point even replying. 

The most read news media in this country is incredibly anti europe, anti immigration. Its hardly surprising that after 30 years of the Daily Mail and the Sun peoples views haven't been influenced.

As for my second point, well how many immigrants do you know? Like actually know, outside of the ones you spot whilst you are grumbling to yourself in supermarkets. 

[One-percent]

2 minutes ago, Pieman Pieface said:

As for my second point, well how many immigrants do you know? Like actually know, outside of the ones you spot whilst you are grumbling to yourself in supermarkets. 

And this is one of the main criticisms. Some immigrants integrate and I know personally examples from this group.  Some ghettoise themselves and do not want to integrate. Surprisingly (not) I know none of these but do rub up against them in my daily life.  They fundamentally change the nature of areas that they ghettoise and it sure doesn't feel like Britain 

[Riedquat]

17 hours ago, cashinmattress said:

Immigration is going up in the next decade, and the next decade, and the one after that, etc...

A cursory analysis of the demographics of the UK states that categorically.

You don't even need a secondary school education to figure this one out.

 

All that graph does is show the utter idiocy of continuing immigration and thus perpetuating a situation that would otherwise resolve itself in time because, you know, they grow old themselves. You certainly don't need a secondary school education to work that out. You probably don't need any education to work it out, but you do need to be incredibly short-sighted and indifferent about the future to propose something that creates perpetual population growth as a good idea.

edit: actually the bulge doesn't look all that wide, leaving me wonder what it would look like if there had been a constant birth rate - fairly flat until it starts to shrink at 60-odd, thanks to modern medicine? There will certainly be a component of that in there at any rate, and that is definitely a reality that we just have to live with. If people live longer you need to devote more of your resources to supporting that, there is simply no other alternative.

Edited January 31, 2017 by Riedquat

[GrizzlyDave]

My old team was 25 strong and had a couple of US members when I started and the rest Brits.

When I left it was around the same size but a lot of staff moved on (to be replaced by new FTC rather than permanent staff).

The new members (seven) were all  from other EU countries, including EE and Spain.

honestly I think the fact that it was FTC meant only those desperate for a job took it (hence the lack of UK applicants).

So a 25% change whilst I was there. And looking on LinkedIn it would appear the trend is continuing.

[Riedquat]

10 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

I live in Croydon where I imagine around 50% of the population are new or relatively recent immigrants and everyone seems to rub along ok, but when I go back to Blackpool which has relatively few migrants there is a bubbling anger which blames these largely non existent migrants for all aspects of the town's decline. I doubt they will get any happier if the migrants go home.       

50%? Just imagine how much better the house prices would be there without them! How much quieter the roads would be, how much less strain on school places, hospital places etc. If there's little anger there it's because the other 50% is either blind or living with their heads in the clouds.

[cashinmattress]

2 minutes ago, Riedquat said:

All that graph does is show the utter idiocy of continuing immigration and thus perpetuating a situation that would otherwise resolve itself in time because, you know, they grow old themselves. You certainly don't need a secondary school education to work that out. You probably don't need any education to work it out, but you do need to be incredibly short-sighted and indifferent about the future to propose something that creates perpetual population growth as a good idea.

No it doesn't. You've not thought about it. And you've not put on your objective thinking cap.

This graph actually sets the case for continued immigration, simply.

Economy scales. A falling population is a major problem in the west.

So is a high standard of living and education.

The graph say the UK is heading for a rather large drop in population buddy.

Further, technology is going to make perhaps 20% or more of the UK populations employment obsolete within the next decade or two; the only jobs that aren't as simple to automate will be those of manual labour.

In the same time, the UK will have burned through the vast majority of it's bounty of indigenous hydrocarbons; energy costs will grow significantly.

Then there will be the (continued) massive strain on our social and health care system tending to boomer age folk in their generational die off.

The UK's already sold off just about all it's assets to private foreign interests, not much left but bricks and mortar now.

And much of our infrastructure is already antiquated. Imagine in a few more decades if dilapidation and neglect.

All of these things need taxes to support.

Go read about Japan's problems. Or Europe's demographic crisis. Etc...

What's your solution?

 

[Riedquat]

15 minutes ago, cashinmattress said:

No it doesn't. You've not thought about it. And you've not put on your objective thinking cap.

This graph actually sets the case for continued immigration, simply.

Economy scales. A falling population is a major problem in the west.

So is a high standard of living and education.

The graph say the UK is heading for a rather large drop in population buddy.

And a large drop in population would be the best thing possible for the UK! The only case for continued immigration comes from short-termism. Most of the UK's standard of living (or at least quality of life) problems stem from too many people. If you really want a more pleasant UK to live in you need one with fewer people, and if there's a bit of a financial cost in getting there then bring it on, the UK's problems don't revolve around lack of money in any case.

A lot of the "antiquated" infrastructure is fine, it only suffers due to over-use from, guess what, too many people (and a lack of will to bother putting in any maintenance). Besides I've not seen any new infrastructure which shouldn't result in everyone responsible for it (including those wanting it) shot for extreme vandalism.

It astonishes me that anyone doesn't want population levels to fall. It's only a problem if it happens very rapidly indeed (or you've hardly got any people to begin with).

Edited January 31, 2017 by Riedquat

[ccc]

1 hour ago, Pieman Pieface said:

The most read news media in this country is incredibly anti europe, anti immigration. Its hardly surprising that after 30 years of the Daily Mail and the Sun peoples views haven't been influenced.

As for my second point, well how many immigrants do you know? Like actually know, outside of the ones you spot whilst you are grumbling to yourself in supermarkets. 

So I have to 'know' people in order to count them as increasing this countries population in a negative way ? Why do I have to know them ? The number of them impacts me not them individually.

[Riedquat]

35 minutes ago, ccc said:

So I have to 'know' people in order to count them as increasing this countries population in a negative way ? Why do I have to know them ? The number of them impacts me not them individually.

Quite. I'll bring back "I've a problem with immigration, I don't have a problem with immigrants" (at least any more than anyone else).

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, the gardener said:

I'm off to Lidl later and I shall count the immigrants. Most of the checkout staff for a start (Katya is rather cute). If I don't hear them speaking then unless they are in tribal dress I'll give them the benefit of the doubt and count them as British.

I reckon it'll be 75% immigrant.

If it bothers you that much perhaps you need to do your shopping at Waitrose.

[Confusion of VIs]

4 hours ago, ccc said:

Disagree. As another states above - we are being swamped. 

You think the 'anger' is driven by what's being reported ? What - by the media that's almost completely 'pro' immigration / diversity etc ?

No - it's being driven by people walking down the street and thinking they now live in a foreign country. 

So why is there little or no anger in Croydon, with lots of immigrants, but lots in Blackpool where there are hardly any.

 

[pig]

2 hours ago, Riedquat said:

50%? Just imagine how much better the house prices would be there without them! How much quieter the roads would be, how much less strain on school places, hospital places etc. If there's little anger there it's because the other 50% is either blind or living with their heads in the clouds.

Either as you wrote that you realised how silly it sounded but posted it anwway...or you seriously need to get out a bit more.

[nightowl]

17 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

So why is there little or no anger in Croydon, with lots of immigrants, but lots in Blackpool where there are hardly any.

 

+1

It strikes me...

- You live an area of poor job opportunities (hence few immigrants): you vote leave out of fustration, 

- You are older (irrespective of wealth or jobs or immigrants): you vote leave to turn back the clock.

[kzb]

11 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

So why is there little or no anger in Croydon, with lots of immigrants, but lots in Blackpool where there are hardly any.

 

C4 Dispatches last night featured BooHoo the online fashion retailer.  Huge windowless warehouse on the outskirts of Burnley Lancs.

Lancashire is one of the poorest areas in the EU, with mass underemployment.  BooHoo warehouse looks like a Gulag.  Guards stand on podiums monitoring the inmates.  Queue up unpaid to get out through the search stations.  Truly truly shocking this is Britain in 2017.  This is the new world of work for 3.2 million people in our country.

They were bringing in EE workers.  Promised 6 or 12 months contracts, many are let go once the Christmas rush is over with.

This disgraceful treatment of workers is enabled by being able to bring in EE agency workers on a whim.  If they had to rely on local employees I think it would not be tolerated, and neither should it.