Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Guest]

33 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The biggest nonsense in politics in 2000 years? Hard to think of a bigger one.  

Not that hard; the execution of Jesus wasn't a high point for politicians. Edit: more recently, Hitler's plans for his personal European Union weren't that great.

2 hours ago, jonb2 said:

As I posted earlier - democracy only works if the voters have full knowledge of the facts and consequences. If they don't, then 99 times out of 100 - it's a mistake.

CC's pointed out that we can't know the consequences. The voters in the most democratic country in the world, Switzerland, don't have full knowledge of the facts when they vote in all their referenda. But as they live in a democratic country and are sovereign, they put a huge amount of effort into acquiring the facts on what they are voting on, even beyond reading all the lengthy voting packs they get in the post. Devolve responsibility to the electorate and they become responsible. Treat them like mushrooms, and you get Brexit.

Edited December 6, 2017 by Guest

[dryrot]

38 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Germany haven't decided to leave the EU.

Which makes quite a difference given that it's a mammoth undertaking that has been likened in complexity to the moon landings (by none other than the hero of the cerebrally challenged). 

I would say that Germany with no government will probably make better decisions than the UK with the present one 

Para 1: well, the FDP have ruled out fiscal transfers. Where that leaves the Euro..

Para 3: Can't argue with you there!

[dryrot]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

So what? They will resolve it in the next few months, in the meantime Germany will be fine.

Whereas we have an already walking dead Mrs May, who has now boxed herself in by so many red lines she is unable to even articulate a path forward never mind getting it through parliament.   

Possibly... Currently if the SDP join CDU/CSU, should be just about workable. But that means AFD are the official opposition... (with the privileges that entails). One suggestion is the SDP not part of the coalition, (hence the largest party outside, and then the official opposition)  but voting with the Gov on key issues. That is a recipe for Weimar mark 2.

(Of course the Germans want us in - we pay!)

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, ccc said:

No vote has ever been done in the history of the planet with every voter having full knowledge of the facts and consequences. The above comment is ridiculous. Unless one was done where everybody got a lend of a De Lorean to see the future ? Did we all miss that one ?

OK, I'll take out 'full' ccc. Did you read my quotes on the fragility of real democracy - since a couple here go on about it being sacrosanct. My point is nothing is irreversible if it looks really bad. 

You see an egg sandwich, you decided you are going to eat it, then someone tells you the eggs have Salmonella - but you have to eat it because you decided to and nothing is going to change your mind. Not even knowing it's going to make you very ill.

BTW, we don't need a De Lorean for this:

http://brexitlies.com/

Maybe I'll modify my 'ridiculous' statement to people being able to tell when we are being lied to. And I know that old joke about every time a politician opens their mouth. The rabid Brexit leaders can't keep their mouths shut.

[Confusion of VIs]

39 minutes ago, highYield said:

Not that hard; the execution of Jesus wasn't a high point for politicians. Edit: more recently, Hitler's plans for his personal European Union weren't that great.

 

Low points i agree but I wouldn't describe either of those two as nonsense, in the same way that Brexit is.

The fact that the cabinet still hasn't even discussed what outcome they want, let alone agreed it shows just what a clusterfuk the whole thing is.

[jonb2]

43 minutes ago, highYield said:

CC's pointed out that we can't know the consequences. The voters in the most democratic country in the world, Switzerland, don't have full knowledge of the facts when they vote in all their referenda. But as they live in a democratic country and are sovereign, they put a huge amount of effort into acquiring the facts on what they are voting on, even beyond reading all the lengthy voting packs they get in the post. Devolve responsibility to the electorate and they become responsible. Treat them like mushrooms, and you get Brexit.

HY, I have admitted that using the phrase 'full facts' is too extreme and needs qualifying to the most important facts. I think most of the consequences were clear though.

However there is the counter-balance of propaganda which has been used. I'll post this again as I did in the last post:

http://brexitlies.com/

 

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, Futuroid said:

I would say that Germany with no government will probably make better decisions than the UK with the present one 

100% this - at least Merkel gives a shit and tries to follow her conscience.

Our government cares for nobody except itself and its banker/corporate masters.

[winkie]

2 hours ago, jonb2 said:

As I posted earlier - democracy only works if the voters have full knowledge of the facts and consequences. If they don't, then 99 times out of 100 - it's a mistake.

.....yes, the 'so called' facts turned out not to be facts......the consequences are still unknown......those that voted leave scarpered promptly to leave it to those that voted remain to complete a deal.

[Confusion of VIs]

41 minutes ago, dryrot said:

Possibly... Currently if the SDP join CDU/CSU, should be just about workable. But that means AFD are the official opposition... (with the privileges that entails). One suggestion is the SDP not part of the coalition, (hence the largest party outside, and then the official opposition)  but voting with the Gov on key issues. That is a recipe for Weimar mark 2.

(Of course the Germans want us in - we pay!)

The Germans want us in because we mainly think alike and are natural allies in most EU votes. 

The French on the other hand see the UK leaving as strengthening their position in the EU and are becomingly pretty ambivalent about whether we stay or leave.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

HY, I have admitted that using the phrase 'full facts' is too extreme and needs qualifying to the most important facts. I think most of the consequences were clear though.

However there is the counter-balance of propaganda which has been used. I'll post this again as I did in the last post:

http://brexitlies.com/

 

Apologies, I didn't see that.

On the first page of http://brexitlies.com they take Farage to task for not agreeing with the 350million big red bus, when he wasn't part of the official leave campaign. Not a good start.

[jonb2]

2 minutes ago, highYield said:

Apologies, I didn't see that.

On the first page of http://brexitlies.com they take Farage to task for not agreeing with the 350million big red bus, when he wasn't part of the official leave campaign. Not a good start.

I think that's nitpicking. If you follow the article link - you can see he was 'associated' with the promise.

Who the feck cares - it was a lie as there were many.

[tomandlu]

4 hours ago, IMHAL said:

Informed decision making. Not tea leaves or tarrot cards or the 'hunch' of some daft minister.

You really are clutching at straws if you are trying to defend dd.

Seriously not defending DD (who is just a liar scrabbling for some - any - sort of excuse for his incompetence), but replacing one bit of woo-woo (tarot) with another (economic forecasts) is hardly an improvement. If predictions continually fail to match reality, it really doesn't matter whether the method is rational or irrational. Better to accept the extreme limitations of theoretical forecasts and instead focus on the empirical.

[HairyOb1]

This is utterly unbelievable to be honest, genuinely unbelievable; the only excuse I can even think, is that they do exist, but it shows it's so bad for us, that you couldn't perform brexit if we all knew how bad it was, but even for me that's a stretch.

We've gone from having them, to not wanting to show them as it would give our hand away, to saying they could be had, but would be heavily redacted, to now there not being any in existence.

How are these pricks still in jobs?  How?  I'll lose contracts in seconds were I to give out this kind of guff.  

Do you know what though, and I said this last week: surely next week cannot be more preposterous than this one.  I am utterly bewildered at the utter incompetence of the man in charge of delivering brexit.  Genuinely.

Surely it's time to call a halt to proceedings, to press the pause button, at the very least.

And how any brexiteer can try and come up with a defence for all of this is also beyond me; even you lot should be shaking your heads in disbelief.

Ireland and the Eu have performed Impact analysis in all sectors, maybe DD is hoping to have a peek at them first.

Woeful, utterly woeful.

[HairyOb1]

18 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

The Germans want us in because we mainly think alike and are natural allies in most EU votes. 

The French on the other hand see the UK leaving as strengthening their position in the EU and are becomingly pretty ambivalent about whether we stay or leave.

Couldn't agree more to be honest.

[GrizzlyDave]

9 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

This is utterly unbelievable to be honest, genuinely unbelievable; the only excuse I can even think, is that they do exist, but it shows it's so bad for us, that you couldn't perform brexit if we all knew how bad it was, but even for me that's a stretch.

We've gone from having them, to not wanting to show them as it would give our hand away, to saying they could be had, but would be heavily redacted, to now there not being any in existence.

How are these pricks still in jobs?  How?  I'll lose contracts in seconds were I to give out this kind of guff.  

Do you know what though, and I said this last week: surely next week cannot be more preposterous than this one.  I am utterly bewildered at the utter incompetence of the man in charge of delivering brexit.  Genuinely.

Surely it's time to call a halt to proceedings, to press the pause button, at the very least.

And how any brexiteer can try and come up with a defence for all of this is also beyond me; even you lot should be shaking your heads in disbelief.

Ireland and the Eu have performed Impact analysis in all sectors, maybe DD is hoping to have a peek at them first.

Woeful, utterly woeful.

I agree 100% must be deliberate falling on sword.

[Shrink Proof]

Schrödinger's impact studies...

 

[GrizzlyDave]

Just now, Shrink Proof said:

Schrödinger's impact studies...

 

Lol

[Futuroid]

10 minutes ago, HairyOb1 said:

This is utterly unbelievable to be honest, genuinely unbelievable; the only excuse I can even think, is that they do exist, but it shows it's so bad for us, that you couldn't perform brexit if we all knew how bad it was, but even for me that's a stretch.

We are uncharted territory now. There has never been a serving government of this country with so little competence. 

From Philip Hammond:

"The cabinet has had general discussions about our Brexit negotiations, but we haven’t had a specific mandating of an end-state position."

They don't even know what they are aiming for yet, so it's hardly surprising that they keep contradicting each other and getting their tiny brains all muddled up (today - Hammond says "we'll be paying our dues deal or no deal", 30 mins later Downing Street says "no deal, no dosh").

The UK will be roasted by the likes of the US or even NZ in trade negotiations if this is the calibre of our political representation.

[Guest]

32 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

I think that's nitpicking. If you follow the article link - you can see he was 'associated' with the promise.

Who the feck cares - it was a lie as there were many.

There are quite a few links on http://brexitlies.com/ ; AKA "LIE EXPLORER" - hard to tell which one contains the 'associated' bit.

[IMHAL]

37 minutes ago, tomandlu said:

Seriously not defending DD (who is just a liar scrabbling for some - any - sort of excuse for his incompetence), but replacing one bit of woo-woo (tarot) with another (economic forecasts) is hardly an improvement. If predictions continually fail to match reality, it really doesn't matter whether the method is rational or irrational. Better to accept the extreme limitations of theoretical forecasts and instead focus on the empirical.

Here is a definition for you: Empirical:

"based on, concerned with, or verifiable by observation or experience rather than theory or pure logic.

"they provided considerable empirical evidence to support their argument"

 

So - to focus on the empirical one would have to live the nightmare and collect the evidence to verify that it is a nightmare that we have lived through - not a very attractive proposition.

 

I would have expected to see an impact assessment - even it was just words and likely risks/impact, but preferably a quantified one based on a set of likely scenarios. Seriously - this is not an excercise for muppets.

 

[HairyOb1]

11 minutes ago, highYield said:

There are quite a few links on http://brexitlies.com/ ; AKA "LIE EXPLORER" - hard to tell which one contains the 'associated' bit.

Ahem....

Farage suggests "more than £350m a week should be spent on Hospitals and Doctors"

Yes, I know, he didn't say the NHS, but I am guessing he meant it...

[Guest]

Just now, HairyOb1 said:

Ahem....

Farage suggests "more than £350m a week should be spent on Hospitals and Doctors"

Yes, I know, he didn't say the NHS, but I am guessing he meant it...

Ahem....

Farage wasn't part of the official vote leave campaign, as he explains in your linked article?

These are the BIG RED BUS NUMBER people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_Leave#History

Including our current foreign secretary.

[Futuroid]

12 minutes ago, highYield said:

Ahem....

Farage wasn't part of the official vote leave campaign, as he explains in your linked article?

These are the BIG RED BUS NUMBER people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_Leave#History

Including our current foreign secretary.

No, he wasn't part of that splinter group, but he repeated their claims, as HairyOb1's link shows.

He also says that there would be £10Bn available to spend, which is a lie as well! 

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

No, he wasn't part of that splinter group, but he repeated their claims, as HairyOb1's link shows.

He also says that there would be £10Bn available to spend, which is a lie as well! 

He was a Tory, then played the major part in forming a Tory splinter group, Farage/UKIP/Tories is not that far off being described as equivalent to David Steel/SDLP/Labour in terms of splinter groups.

But the Tories didn't want the former Tory Farage as part of Vote Leave, as then Vote Leave might win. So any problems with Vote Leave's BIG RED BUS NUMBERS would best be adressed towards the current Tories in office, who were part of Vote Leave. 

[GrizzlyDave]

31 minutes ago, highYield said:

Ahem....

Farage wasn't part of the official vote leave campaign, as he explains in your linked article?

These are the BIG RED BUS NUMBER people: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_Leave#History

Including our current foreign secretary.

Not back to the red bus again!

No one GAF about the red bus.

HTH..