Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[TJHooker]

1 minute ago, dugsbody said:

Did you misread my post or something? You sound like the "right sort of person". Sorry for those that aren't, but they're underclass anyway and won't miss the opportunities.

My qualifications can be attained in a couple of months, the bar is set very low to get work around the world if you're a Brit.

For example a person investing a few hundred pound in becoming a TEFL teacher could make the world their lobster.

[dugsbody]

1 minute ago, TJHooker said:

My qualifications can be attained in a couple of months, the bar is set very low to get work around the world if you're a Brit.

For example a person investing a few hundred pound in becoming a TEFL teacher could make the world their lobster.

So we don't really expect ending FOM to make much difference? What's the point in doing it again?

[OnionTerror]

11 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

You are ignoring the politics of this, if May fails to go get a good deal there will be a clamour for an EEA/EFTA based deal. He will have the choice of ignoring it and effectively siding with May or embracing it and saving the nation from Kay's botched and damaging Brexit.

I think I know which one he will go for, the danger for Labour is he waits too long to declare his hand and May beats him to it.

He's rules out the EEA option, as he thinks it'll upset his re-nationalisation plans...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-commons-vote-labour-customs-union-a8343176.html

5 minutes ago, thehowler said:

A clamour? Labour have already dismissed it haven't they? I haven't heard any politicos saying EFTA suits us, we're too big an economy.

Besides, as often happens on this thread people see ornate complexity in the ideas they think are foolish and regard their own proposals as blissfully straightforward. EFTA entry requires unanimous approval from other members, do you know we've got that? They also have their own court acting as overlords and an annual budget, which won't go down that well with some. And moving with EFTA to EEA means taking the four freedoms and the same-old Brexit impossibles...

Its the EFTA Court...rather than the ECJ...Its a lot looser arbitrator...What the WTO?  Isn't that a trade arbitrator?  Its that, or becoming a third country, still coming under the jurisdiction of the ECJ in many areas, and having no say how the rules are made..

EEA states don't pay into the EU budget...It is paid directly to each EU agency that they belong to.  As for the four freedoms, they can be suspended indefinitely in certain occasions, under articles 112 & 113.  

 

[TJHooker]

11 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

So we don't really expect ending FOM to make much difference? What's the point in doing it again?

We were discussing appropriately skilled Brits working overseas, and how the bar is not set too high. These are obviously jobs that nations need foreign labour to fill.

But ending FOM will enable the state to curb the un/semi skilled of Europe coming here en-masse to undercut the British working class, though obviously the most Labour/Tory MPs and EU supporters enjoy seeing the these people get fked over and wish for it to continue.

Don't see any Brits moving to Europe en-masse to undercut the locals which has happened here for example in the building industry. And i get paid vastly more than the locals who do the same job no matter which country i go to so I and Brits like me if anything will see the locals push for higher wages.

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by TJHooker

[dugsbody]

2 minutes ago, TJHooker said:

We were discussing appropriately skilled Brits working overseas, and how the bar is not set too high. These are obviously jobs that nations need foreign labour to fill.

But ending FOM will enable the state to curb the un/semi skilled of Europe coming here en-masse to undercut the British working class, though obviously the most Labour/Tory MPs and EU supporters enjoy seeing the these people get fked over and wish for it to continue.

Don't see any Brits moving to Europe en-masse to undercut the locals which has happened here for example in the building industry. And i get paid vastly more than the locals who do the same job no matter which country i go to so I and Brits like me if anything will see the locals push for higher wages.

 

I think I see. Which foreign labour in the UK would you stop? Is it things like plumbers, brick layers, sandwich shop workers? 

What about my professional industry? More than 50% of my team are foreign. Could be good if we kicked them out so my wage can go up too.

[thehowler]

5 minutes ago, Dave Beans said:

EEA states don't pay into the EU budget...It is paid directly to each EU agency that they belong to.  As for the four freedoms, they can be suspended indefinitely in certain occasions, under articles 112 & 113. 

Too many ifs and buts there though. EFTA has its own budget requirements - tiny, admittedly. And nobody in govt wants/admits they want sole WTO, they're still talking about close, frictionless trade with EU. May making the usual promises in Sunday Times today, (easy trade, NI, right to make own trade deals - "I will not let you down") raising stakes on resignation if she doesn't get them.

Customs Partnership still resolves all this though, EU keeping very quiet about it since the positive remarks by Ireland last week.

[TJHooker]

9 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

I think I see. Which foreign labour in the UK would you stop? Is it things like plumbers, brick layers, sandwich shop workers? 

What about my professional industry? More than 50% of my team are foreign. Could be good if we kicked them out so my wage can go up too.

Foreign labour that we do not need, obviously this will change over time.

When we leave the EU it will enable us to set the bar as high or low regards specific jobs as necessary.

At present the dregs of EU land can walk in and ride the tax credit/housing benefit gravy train, whereas 50 or so Indian doctors as documented in the press recently have been unable to get a visa. Surely even the most hardened of Remoaners can see this situation is lacking in the most basic of common sense and is not good for the country.

Where did i say about kicking people out? But if peoples skills are no longer necessary and their work visa has ran out then they shouldn't be allowed to work here ... Just as i am not allowed to work overseas when my work ends or visa has ran out.

Is that too mean for you?

 

Edited May 13, 2018 by TJHooker

[jonb2]

22 hours ago, thehowler said:

You don't really think a manufacturing revolution is going to save the UK, do you - that goose is long cooked. The drift in the UK has been clear for decades, it's cheap money, HPI, shops and services (with a sprinkling of universal income, maybe?) to try and absorb the masses that used to go into manufacturing, some high-end engineering, tech investment gaming etc, growth in higher education and finance. Tourism is growing thanks to the Brexit devaluation (could get to maybe 8-10% of GDP) and we've got the language and culture bolted on from US dominance of tv/musak. The challenge for the Brits is to see and accept what we have become, and make the best of our strengths - and that's not making washing machines.

Brexit could well see us trading more... but with less wealthy people.

I am not talking cart wheels and steam engines Howler. I am talking about the ethos of making things. Germany does it and is the most successful country in Europe.

Greece has tourism =- speaks for itself. Also, considering Brexit was mainly about having less people coming here, how's that going to hang with the leavers? It will be ironic if one of our main industries relied on hoards of visitors don't you think?

Brexit will lead to less trade as we have nobody who can negotiate the right deals in charge. The point is the last 40 years since Thatcher (and her whisperer Minford) things have been going down hill. Absolutely nothing to do with the EU - do you think that Jesus will be looking at a map of Solihull for his second coming?

On your final sentence - the arms trade will do well.

[TJHooker]

22 hours ago, thehowler said:

 Tourism is growing thanks to the Brexit devaluation

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?YA=1&C1=GBP&C2=USD&A=1&YYYY1=1953&MM1=01&DD1=01&YYYY2=2018&MM2=05&DD2=13&LANG=en

Its a long term devaluation due to what is discussed on this site on a daily basis. Carney given an excuse to print and drop interest rates is inevitably going to see the pound devalued and see more bad lendingwhich will hit UK plc in the future.

[jonb2]

5 minutes ago, TJHooker said:

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates.php?YA=1&C1=GBP&C2=USD&A=1&YYYY1=1953&MM1=01&DD1=01&YYYY2=2018&MM2=05&DD2=13&LANG=en

Its a long term devaluation due to what is discussed on this site on a daily basis. Carney given an excuse to print and drop interest rates is inevitably going to see the pound devalued and see more bad lendingwhich will hit UK plc in the future.

Enlarge the chart

http://fxtop.com/en/historical-exchange-rates-graph-zoom.php?C1=GBP&C2=USD&A=1&DD1=01&MM1=01&YYYY1=1953&DD2=13&MM2=05&YYYY2=2018&LARGE=1&LANG=en&CJ=0&MM1Y=0

Also this

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/sterlings-punishment-five-charts-that-show-how-the-pound-has-been-ravaged-by-brexit-a7350251.html

The lowest level since 1985.

We depend on inputs more than we can export. Things are going to get more expensive, much. But we're British - we can adopt the stiff upper lip and impose rationing while listening to the Home service.

[dugsbody]

41 minutes ago, TJHooker said:

Foreign labour that we do not need, obviously this will change over time.

When we leave the EU it will enable us to set the bar as high or low regards specific jobs as necessary.

At present the dregs of EU land can walk in and ride the tax credit/housing benefit gravy train, whereas 50 or so Indian doctors as documented in the press recently have been unable to get a visa. Surely even the most hardened of Remoaners can see this situation is lacking in the most basic of common sense and is not good for the country.

Where did i say about kicking people out? But if peoples skills are no longer necessary and their work visa has ran out then they shouldn't be allowed to work here ... Just as i am not allowed to work overseas when my work ends or visa has ran out.

Is that too mean for you?

 

You didn't answer my question. Why labour do you not want coming to the UK right now? Plumbers, brick layers, sandwich workers, strawberry pickers? Please be more specific because you seem to have a strong opinion that freedom of movement is not working.

And no, I don't agree with ending freedom of movement. Why should we unless you also want to end freedom of movement in the four nations of the UK? Why should some northerner or welshman be able to come to London and undercut my wages?

[TJHooker]

1 minute ago, dugsbody said:

You didn't answer my question. Why labour do you not want coming to the UK right now? Plumbers, brick layers, sandwich workers, strawberry pickers? Please be more specific because you seem to have a strong opinion that freedom of movement is not working.

And no, I don't agree with ending freedom of movement. Why should we unless you also want to end freedom of movement in the four nations of the UK? Why should some northerner or welshman be able to come to London and undercut my wages?

I gave you a response but like the referendum vote you dont seem to want to accept it. It would change over time. Do you really want me to sit here and go through the 1000s of jobs in the UK which should be allowed right now. This is what your are stating and its beyond an idiotic suggestion.

But i do not think we should be importing labour that is subsidised by the taxpayer via benefits such as tax credits, housing benefit etc.. So any company seeking a visa for a role to be filled that needs other peoples money to subsidise their private companies profits should not be allowed.

Your response about a Northerner moving within his own country sums up your level intellect and means i am out of here responding to your childish mindset.

 

[Funn3r]

52 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

also want to end freedom of movement in the four nations of the UK? Why should some northerner or welshman be able to come to London and undercut my wages?

Exactly. The Brexiters are deliriously happy with "taking back control of our borders" so they can finally close the door on immigrants - where are they when we English question the injustice of belonging to the United Kingdom? 

If you're a Scottish, N-Irish, or Welsh brexiter and living in England then you need to look at yourself and ask why it's OK for you to even be here when you are trying so hard to kick out "foreigners"? 

Disclaimer: I am a poor Northern English economic migrant now living in the posh South-East. At least I am not hypocritical about it like said brexiters.

[dugsbody]

1 hour ago, TJHooker said:

I gave you a response but like the referendum vote you dont seem to want to accept it. It would change over time. Do you really want me to sit here and go through the 1000s of jobs in the UK which should be allowed right now. This is what your are stating and its beyond an idiotic suggestion.

But i do not think we should be importing labour that is subsidised by the taxpayer via benefits such as tax credits, housing benefit etc.. So any company seeking a visa for a role to be filled that needs other peoples money to subsidise their private companies profits should not be allowed.

Your response about a Northerner moving within his own country sums up your level intellect and means i am out of here responding to your childish mindset.

 

Your world view is limited by your nationalist views on where boundaries are. Think broader. 

Why shouldn't people in the EU be allowed to move around in their own trading union to seek employment? Why do you want to limit humans based on their ability so that those who aren't as able have even less ability to better their lives?

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, TJHooker said:

Foreign labour that we do not need, obviously this will change over time.

When we leave the EU it will enable us to set the bar as high or low regards specific jobs as necessary.

At present the dregs of EU land can walk in and ride the tax credit/housing benefit gravy train, whereas 50 or so Indian doctors as documented in the press recently have been unable to get a visa. Surely even the most hardened of Remoaners can see this situation is lacking in the most basic of common sense and is not good for the country.

Where did i say about kicking people out? But if peoples skills are no longer necessary and their work visa has ran out then they shouldn't be allowed to work here ... Just as i am not allowed to work overseas when my work ends or visa has ran out.

Is that too mean for you?

 

Like most leavers you quote a string of issues that are nothing to do with the EU as reasons for leaving.

 

[Gigantic Purple Slug]

16 minutes ago, dugsbody said:

Your world view is limited by your nationalist views on where boundaries are. Think broader. 

Why shouldn't people in the EU be allowed to move around in their own trading union to seek employment? Why do you want to limit humans based on their ability so that those who aren't as able have even less ability to better their lives?

EU policies like FOM are supra national ideological policies.

These policies unfortunately have realistic consequences that have to be dealt with (or more frequently not dealt with) at a national level.

The problem with people moving around a trading block is that block does not have uniform social policy, or give consistent benefits to different people within the block. That creates imbalances as people move around the block seeking their best advantage. Imbalances in jobs, housing, health service, schools to name a few.

It's not just an issue of people moving to the "best" places. It's also an issue that the "worst" places get depleted in skills and get unbalanced demographics over a short timescale.

In answer to your questions :

"Why shouldn't people in the EU be allowed to move around in their own trading union to seek employment?" - to me no reason why they shouldn't, so long as social policy is harmonised within the block and politicians ensure the needs of the people are properly met across all areas. If it isn't, then it's a bad idea because it creates imbalances which lead to problems.

"Why do you want to limit humans based on their ability so that those who aren't as able have even less ability to better their lives?" - because human populations need managing. The simple counter to your argument is that if this idea is such a good one then we should do away with passports altogether for all countries. Why don't we ? There is the second issue that ability in this context means "ability to travel". There is no other form of selection based on talent.

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, thehowler said:

A clamour? Labour have already dismissed it haven't they? I haven't heard any politicos saying EFTA suits us, we're too big an economy.

Besides, as often happens on this thread people see ornate complexity in the ideas they think are foolish and regard their own proposals as blissfully straightforward. EFTA entry requires unanimous approval from other members, do you know we've got that? They also have their own court acting as overlords and an annual budget, which won't go down that well with some. And moving with EFTA to EEA means taking the four freedoms and the same-old Brexit impossibles...

It is far less complex than the other options on offer.

As for Labour dismissing it, so what, they don't have anything else that is credible to offer.

Once reality intrudes they will have to deicide to either support May's plans for some form of hard Brexit/no deal or offer something else.

The Parliamentary arithmetic gives them the opportunity to stop a hard Brexit. If they don't take it I suspect the Tories will be in power for a very long time.

[Confusion of VIs]

3 hours ago, Dave Beans said:

He's rules out the EEA option, as he thinks it'll upset his re-nationalisation plans...

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-jeremy-corbyn-eu-single-market-commons-vote-labour-customs-union-a8343176.html

 

If he backs May's hard Brexit he won't gain power so it's a non issue. 

[TJHooker]

1 hour ago, dugsbody said:

Your world view is limited by your nationalist views on where boundaries are. Think broader. 

Why shouldn't people in the EU be allowed to move around in their own trading union to seek employment? Why do you want to limit humans based on their ability so that those who aren't as able have even less ability to better their lives?

 

If i had known you're a libtard who wishes to bring down all borders i'd have ignored your childlike posts from the start.

Yes someone who travels the world for the last 2 decades and raises a mixed race child on my own clearly has a limited nationalist views.You libtards really are ignorant silly little boys.

People in the EU are allowed to move in their trading union, but fascists student union libtards like yourself can't accept the will of the majority of the British people and a democratic vote.

I want to limit people coming here as its better for my families life, why are you so undoubtedly childlike that you don't understand the reason people vote?

[TJHooker]

1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said:

Like most leavers you quote a string of issues that are nothing to do with the EU as reasons for leaving.

 

So freedom of movement from the EU is nothing to do with being in the EU.

It isn't the major reason i voted to leave, but I really have no time for people with fascist views like yourself and Dugsbody.

[dugsbody]

42 minutes ago, TJHooker said:

So freedom of movement from the EU is nothing to do with being in the EU.

It isn't the major reason i voted to leave, but I really have no time for people with fascist views like yourself and Dugsbody.

It is the major reason people voted to leave the EU. Every single nonsense argument about trade deals and sovereignty eventually boils down to ending freedom of movement. It's what you all want primarily, it's just that some are more honest about it than others.

[Confusion of VIs]

32 minutes ago, TJHooker said:

So freedom of movement from the EU is nothing to do with being in the EU.

It isn't the major reason i voted to leave, but I really have no time for people with fascist views like yourself and Dugsbody.

Fascist views ???, still it makes a change from being called a wishy washy iberal. Perhaps you need to invest in a dictionary.

If you had bothered to read a bit more about the subject of even some of the earlier posts you would know that allowing and rewarding benefits tourism was a conscious decision of the UK government and nothing to do with the FoM rules, you might also be aware that them Home Office intends to introduce a visa system for EU nationals that is FoM in all but name.

Still like many  leave supporters you didn't, which of course is your right, the bit i don't understand is why you feel it is necessary to parade your ignorance on here.

 

 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

If you had bothered to read a bit more about the subject of even some of the earlier posts you would know that allowing and rewarding benefits tourism was a conscious decision of the UK government and nothing to do with the FoM rules ... 

Hmmm... not sure about conscious. Why would the gubbermint consciously choose to allow & reward benefits tourism? To paper over the cracks of the deep inequality in the UK? At the behest of their corporate masters to suppress wages? To bring about Brexit?

22 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said:

you might also be aware that them Home Office intends to introduce a visa system for EU nationals that is FoM in all but name.

Really? Civil servants can't make up policy (completely) on their own, so they must have been ordered to do so by our 'representative' politicians? In that case, it's all sorted behind the scenes - nothing more for anyone to moan about?

[rollover]

2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said:

It is far less complex than the other options on offer.

As for Labour dismissing it, so what, they don't have anything else that is credible to offer.

Once reality intrudes they will have to deicide to either support May's plans for some form of hard Brexit/no deal or offer something else.

The Parliamentary arithmetic gives them the opportunity to stop a hard Brexit. If they don't take it I suspect the Tories will be in power for a very long time.

It looks to me that the Labour doesn't want to play the ball, simply because they don't need to.

Any step they will take - support or reject May's/Tories plan, come with their own plan or support second referendum, would drag them further and further into Brexit quagmire. And straight away Labour will be co-responsible for Brexit and the following mess.

If they stay out, Tories will be fully responsible for creating the Brexit issue, delivering referendum, negotiating, delivering the Brexit and all the mess and turmoil that will follow after.

[IMHAL]

52 minutes ago, TJHooker said:

 

If i had known you're a libtard who wishes to bring down all borders i'd have ignored your childlike posts from the start.

Yes someone who travels the world for the last 2 decades and raises a mixed race child on my own clearly has a limited nationalist views.You libtards really are ignorant silly little boys.

People in the EU are allowed to move in their trading union, but fascists student union libtards like yourself can't accept the will of the majority of the British people and a democratic vote.

I want to limit people coming here as its better for my families life, why are you so undoubtedly childlike that you don't understand the reason people vote?

I can understand that you voted to leave and that meant ditching FoM - but it is a stretch to say that everyone who voted Leave also did so for the same reason. Therefore you cannot use the 'will of the people' argument with regard to this.