Bloo Loo Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 On 21/12/2016 at 6:53 PM, jiltedjen said: Bitcoin is flying. my first bitcoin i bought at £15 now they are worth £664 most good! all bitcoin needs is time and it will go into a mega bubble many many times higher than this £60,000 (10 years time) a coin for example. 21 million bitcoins only, and we all know that when real bubbles get going they can go crazy. Bitcoin is a bit like and endless bubble machine. People are sick of gold being manipulated with paper contracts. Bitcoin has an open ledger so you can see how much the new 'paper bitcoin notes' are actually backed. I will buy when this bubble bursts providing it surpasses the last bubble peaks (very bullish longterm). Then i will back the truck up as the third bubble will be HUGE! keep them till it becomes currency and your holding will make you one of the richest people on the planet. 21 million BTC between 9 billion folks..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
saderic Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 It sounds like some people here think Bitcoin can replace fiat. I'm not an 'expert' but I see some obvious obstacles which makes me think this is extremely unlikely. Please feel free to point out flaws in my arguments, have not had time to research any of this in detail. Fundamental view: Like it or not, but most people believe in government as their ultimate authority. Anti-establishment sentiment has a long way to go before it becomes anti-government. I'm sure anarchy appeals to some but it has proven quite difficult to run a successful society that way. I'm therefore not going to try to adress the relevance of BTC in a world without governments (although I would rather invest in guns and bullets). Obstacle 1: Governments won't like BTC, for obvious reasons, but at least in theory they have to answer to the people. For BTC, the question then becomes whether the 99% will be supportive of a currency already held by 1%? And, based on current trends, a mostly Chinese 1% at that. I find it very hard to believe Joe Plumber decide to endorse a system where some spotty workshy teenager all of the sudden has become one of the richest people in the country. Leads into the next one... Obstacle 2: Tax and Legal. Surprised this is not discussed. If a government wants to kill Bitcoin then it can try to ban it (with varying degrees of success). They can definitely tax it - and demand payment in fiat or some other currency of their choice. For instance, a BTC holding/wealth tax could require conversion to fiat for payment, also incurring CGT equivalent. This will likely be a popular way to raise tax revenue / redistribute your (supposedly) enormous BTC wealth. Assuming you don't want to go to prison or spend your life on the run with unusable electronic funds hidden in some dark corner of the web, your wealth could quickly be reduced (at almost no political or administrative cost to the state). But I imagine the currency will collapse long before you run out of BTC. Don't make the mistake of thinking Bitcoin is anonymous, transactions are perfectly traceable and addresses on the already existing 'rich list' will eventuality be mapped to people. Obstacle 3: If BTC protocol could be changed or transferred into supposedly anonymous alternatives (Monero, ZCash), then it is tempting to think governments could not come after you. But it would mean a closed system, with no means of wealth redistribution or ensuring sufficient currency remain in circulation for the economy to function. Back to obstacle 1. Obstacle 4: Governments will - and have started to - create their own digital currencies, possibly improving on the BTC protocol. Not sure the BTC first mover advantage will hold up against the might of government... At best, I see a future where BTC remains relevant as a dark market currency, but easily exchanged with government-backed fiat or crypto alternatives. It may be in governments interest to keep the currency alive in an apparent show of free market and democratic openness. But the market cap would certainly not be in the stratosphere and quite possibly significantly lower than today. Just my thoughts people! At the end of it, I like the cryptocurrency ideas and think BTC has been a tremendously successful experiment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 On 21/12/2016 at 3:40 PM, doomed said: It is beyond doubt now that we are going to have a global decentralised form of value exchange operating outside of government's control. At the minute Bitcoin looks locked in. There are 7B people on the planet with only 21M coins ever to be produced so the current price is many orders of magnitude below where it will end up. Each coin is divisible by a lot. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 12 minutes ago, Odin said: Each coin is divisible by a lot. https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Units What does that have to do with what I said? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traktion Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 On 22/12/2016 at 1:55 AM, Marshmellow said: What about alternatives to bitcoin? Maidsafe is the main alternative interest for me. Safe net is genuinely different to the rest and doesn't even use a blockchain. Instead, it is being designed to provide a distributed network, over which you can layer various data. As the network has an address space, creating unique data as a currency then becomes trivial (I.e. Safecoin). Safe net is still under heavy development, but if they pull it off, it will be a beautiful thing! https://maidsafe.net/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rave Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 I mined a couple of bitcoins in 2009, or something. I've still got my wallet.dat file and last time I checked blockchain.info they'd not been nicked. I would like to make sure they're securely stashed so I won't lose them, not sure how I go about that? Advice welcome . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funn3r Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 What I don't understand... why is BitCoin worth real money? There seems to be a huge number of clones ThisCoin,ThatCoin, SomeotherCoin and all work on same blockchain crypto mumbo jumbo don't they? So why are all the others worthless? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darby Ram Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 34 minutes ago, Funn3r said: What I don't understand... why is BitCoin worth real money? There seems to be a huge number of clones ThisCoin,ThatCoin, SomeotherCoin and all work on same blockchain crypto mumbo jumbo don't they? So why are all the others worthless? Network effect. If two people are using the same protocol, it's worthless; if 2000 people are using the same protocol, it's an experiment; if 2,000,000 people are using the same protocol, then it starts to get interesting and maybe it's worth something. Bitcoin's network effect is that it was the first mover and so it has a huge user-base, name-recognition and a lot of vested interests. Ethereum, at number two, also has a decent network effect because it has a big start-up ecosystem and a lot of developer interest. Other protocols that complement, rather than compete, with those two (like IPFS or Maidsafe) have a better chance of getting their own network effect going than displacing the big two, barring some huge technical innovation out of left field. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Smith Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 12 hours ago, Rave said: I mined a couple of bitcoins in 2009, or something. I've still got my wallet.dat file and last time I checked blockchain.info they'd not been nicked. I would like to make sure they're securely stashed so I won't lose them, not sure how I go about that? Advice welcome . For a couple of coins, try a Ledger Wallet... https://www.ledgerwallet.com/ ...really easy to use, and pretty secure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odin Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 15 hours ago, doomed said: What does that have to do with what I said? My interpretation of one of the points (s)he was making was there are not enough coins to go around, just on the basis of the global population; and this potential demand creates scarcity to ensure price increase. So my counter point is the current tokens are designed to be divided up more than the usual 1/100 we use today. What we need is a crypto currency, rooted on global energy production. Citizen income where tokens in energy production are handed out. Those tokens have a lifetime and can not be hoarded significantly. You have to use that energy or lose that energy or exchange tokens for other things (like manufactured stuff that used the energy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 (edited) 4 hours ago, Funn3r said: What I don't understand... why is BitCoin worth real money? There seems to be a huge number of clones ThisCoin,ThatCoin, SomeotherCoin and all work on same blockchain crypto mumbo jumbo don't they? So why are all the others worthless? You should do some reading around the subject. What I can figure is its a scam. It was set up by some guy satoshi or something who rigged it so he could mine a certain number of coins easily. Using his PC. If the output of mined coins goes up the time taken to mine the coins increases is the complexity. Every 4 years the mining reward drops by half. The number of coins was also limited to 21 mill. All to ensure the inventor got a load upfront. There a mining calcuilator out there. Right now if can min at 100T hash( current asics can do 800M hash) you can make 1000 a month. Next year its 500. The inventor was lucky it was adopted and he'd rigged so he could mine all the easy coins... Edited December 24, 2016 by GreenDevil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie_George Posted December 24, 2016 Share Posted December 24, 2016 16 minutes ago, GreenDevil said: You should do some reading around the subject. What I can figure is its a scam. It was set up by some guy satoshi or something who rigged it so he could mine a certain number of coins easily. Using his PC. If the output of mined coins goes up the time taken to mine the coins increases is the complexity. Every 4 years the mining reward drops by half. The number of coins was also limited to 21 mill. All to ensure the inventor got a load upfront. There a mining calcuilator out there. Right now if can min at 100T hash( current asics can do 800M hash) you can make 1000 a month. Next year its 500. The inventor was lucky it was adopted and he'd rigged so he could mine all the easy coins... Hmmm. I think it is you that needs to do some more reading. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggy Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 (edited) Been a long time since I posted but I need to correct greendevil. I have worked in the blockchain space for a fair while now and you could not be more wrong in your reading of this. I am not going to make any silly claims about bitcoin's potential and I'm experienced enough now to know how nuanced and complicated the area is. However, this space has the most unbelievable intellects and characters (including shady ones), big business, massive investors, savvy traders, noobs, and is a fantastic technology. . Edited December 26, 2016 by miggy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 On 24/06/2016 at 6:47 AM, 200p said: If it can make a new high, clear the $800, then the full bull is back on. On 23/12/2016 at 3:32 PM, 200p said: Numbers do matter, it enables you to control risk, and money, real profits can be made. Oh tea leaves, showeth the way oh mighty beverage. Look at the solid move from $800 to $900. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 I merely read up about the history of mining and the potential to do some, and saw that to me it looked like a get rich quick scheme for santori. Who incidentally still owns most of the coin mined on day 1. Maybe I am just a cynic and he he did it for the good of everyone... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miggy Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 Hi green, you have a very tiny part of the picture. It's an immensely fascinating area and th best thing is to keep reading up. You won't regret it. The critical point is what bitcoin et all are - decentralised systems. The whole satoshi thing is quite complex and this isn't really the place to go into it. Suffice to say that when it was announced on the cypherpunk list hardly anyone believed it could work. As a get rich scheme it would have been appalling and also devastatingly world changingly clever as it was solving (effectively if not actually) a fundamental problem in computer science. Bitcoin was a stroke of genius and I mean that literally. All this is a separate discussion from bitcoin or other crypto investment. Imv if bitcoin exchanges and banks can be safe enough and if regulation is more supportive then it will make a great digital gold. It will not be a mainstream currency short of currency disasters. Others may disagree. Other cryptos will fill other niches. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted December 26, 2016 Share Posted December 26, 2016 Like gold mining booms. I'm still looking at the picks and shovels of this mining boom. Coinsillium might be worth a look later down the line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiltedjen Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 its climbing a wall now. maybe a few days of this and a bust, taking it to a new higher low/bottom. £765 a coin now, cheeky little 5,000% increase on my first coins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 I was brave or stupid enough to go all in at £150 a coin and turn my deposit into an outright purchase if I were to cash out now. It is making me very nervous but I will be letting it ride I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scb Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 7 hours ago, doomed said: I was brave or stupid enough to go all in at £150 a coin and turn my deposit into an outright purchase if I were to cash out now. It is making me very nervous but I will be letting it ride I think. I too went all in but at £280 and I'm not getting cold feet. I want to stick it out as like others I think there's the possibility (after another busy or two) to make some big money. By thinking right now is even if it all goes wrong in 24 hours it needs a 60-70% drop to take me back to the start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
giggler000 Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 26 minutes ago, scb said: I too went all in but at £280 and I'm not getting cold feet. I want to stick it out as like others I think there's the possibility (after another busy or two) to make some big money. By thinking right now is even if it all goes wrong in 24 hours it needs a 60-70% drop to take me back to the start. Out of interest did you guys buy a currency swap or actual btc? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scb Posted December 27, 2016 Share Posted December 27, 2016 55 minutes ago, giggler000 said: Out of interest did you guys buy a currency swap or actual btc? I bough BTC, got some on a https://www.ledgerwallet.com/ as advised on this site but also got some smaller amount in a couple of online wallets, "just in case". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 10 hours ago, scb said: I too went all in but at £280 and I'm not getting cold feet. I want to stick it out as like others I think there's the possibility (after another busy or two) to make some big money. By thinking right now is even if it all goes wrong in 24 hours it needs a 60-70% drop to take me back to the start. 17 hours ago, doomed said: I was brave or stupid enough to go all in at £150 a coin and turn my deposit into an outright purchase if I were to cash out now. It is making me very nervous but I will be letting it ride I think. Well done to you both! Personally, I would think about a bit of risk mitigation here. Sell enough to get your nominal stake back, and let the rest ride for ever. That should still leave you with 'plenty' now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Acid In The Punch Bowl Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 Bitcoin price at record high against pound and euro Bitcoin has hit a new all-time high against the pound, with the virtual currency now well above the previous record levels of late 2013. The currency remains below the record level against the dollar, the typical international benchmark, but has shot past its previous highs in sterling terms in recent days. One bitcoin was worth £782.49 on Wednesday, above the £694.65 it reached on November 29 2013. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/2016/12/28/bitcoin-price-record-high-against-pound-euro/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adamLancs Posted December 28, 2016 Share Posted December 28, 2016 I wonder if anybody feels like cashing out Btc for £ right now... one capped at 21 million, one inflated by 21 billion / mo... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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