GreenDevil Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 6 hours ago, 200p said: $200 drop. Price now $999. That $1000 area is a key area! It's one of the few markets that trades 24-7, 365 days a year. I don't believe it can be naked shorted, or shorted. I think you can short it via CFD. Although Ive never been silly enough to take the short side so can't be sure ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 4 hours ago, GreenDevil said: I think you can short it via CFD. Although Ive never been silly enough to take the short side so can't be sure ... Yes you can do that on etorro Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 (edited) Hmm so how do they short the underlying market to hedge the aggregate short position on their books? Edited January 6, 2017 by 200p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldbug9999 Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 6 minutes ago, 200p said: Hmm so how do they short the underlying market to hedge the aggregate short position on their books? I presume the hedge is people betting the other way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 OK. There could be a business opportunity for people willing to hold bitcoin and loan it out to be shorted, and make some sort of interest from it from fees. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blod Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 57 minutes ago, 200p said: OK. There could be a business opportunity for people willing to hold bitcoin and loan it out to be shorted, and make some sort of interest from it from fees. The issue is that there just aren't any large holders of Btc. Interesting that the recent drop seems to have bottomed out where it has, I'd have thought it fallen further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 1 hour ago, 200p said: OK. There could be a business opportunity for people willing to hold bitcoin and loan it out to be shorted, and make some sort of interest from it from fees. Poloniex.com do this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 1 hour ago, 200p said: Hmm so how do they short the underlying market to hedge the aggregate short position on their books? I doubt there has ever been a net short position on their books over any longer time frame period. To hedge the long they just buy the net coins on a daily basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermaus Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 I still have lots of bitcoins, the in-laws who think I'm some idiot who's babbled on about stupid internet money are wondering if I'll buy their property at what they paid for it 20 years ago and rent it to them cheap. it's nice to be right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darby Ram Posted January 6, 2017 Share Posted January 6, 2017 21 hours ago, Lovely Rum said: looking very crashy today. ethereums holding onto recent gains though. any thoughts on where it will go from here? I think the Yuan's gains over the past couple of days have put the brakes on Bitcoin for the moment. I still think this year/six months will be positive for Bitcoin, as the hype cycle has turned on again and there is a much more mature infrastructure in place this time around. Definitely shows how dominated by China the whole game is, though. Ethereum has had a lot of positive news flow over the past couple of days, which I think explains the big gains. The most important, other than the ongoing technical development of Swarm and proof-of-stake, is Ethereum Enterprise. News of that just got leaked and it's pretty significant. A blockchain consortium called R3 had signed up a bunch of bulge bracket banks but they started dropping out over the last couple of months. Turns out they have been switching over to Ethereum. That's a huge validation of the technology if it pans out. And one of the big threats was that the Ethereum hippies would get outgunned by a VC-backed outfit - if institutional money enters on Ethereum's side, it builds a really big moat. My ideal crypto holding now would be 50:50 Bitcoin and Ethereum, but would also consider a Monero hedge in case Bitcoin gets taken down by China - anyone have any experience with that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RickyD Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Crashy crashy. At what price are y'all going to consider buying more bitcoins? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
200p Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I wouldn't be catching a falling knife. However previous resistance may provide support at $800. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovely Rum Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 32 minutes ago, 200p said: I wouldn't be catching a falling knife. However previous resistance may provide support at $800. my chips are all on the table but $800 sounds like a good bet to get back in Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 (edited) Re: Ethereum. Reading wiki is enough to put me off. Having to learn Gibberese just to understand a currency doesn't inspire confidence. And it's already been hacked several times. Edited January 7, 2017 by Peter Hun Autocorrect balls up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maverick73 Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 A few words from the Chinese government, knocked down the value of a bitcoin by one fifth. It was speculated that a major withdrawal from the yuan and invested into bitcoin prompted the statement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inoperational Bumblebee Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 So what did they say? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 TBH it wasnt really a 1/5 drop, its been solid around 900 ish for a while, which is where it is now, the push up was just a spike high. It needs to spend more time before it can move through 1000. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiltedjen Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 was a spike higher. the longer term trend is still there. took China long enough to spot the issues with bitcoin. tempted to buy more now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 6 hours ago, maverick73 said: A few words from the Chinese government, knocked down the value of a bitcoin by one fifth. It was speculated that a major withdrawal from the yuan and invested into bitcoin prompted the statement. Bitcoin is useful to the Chinese government for tracking criminals. It's a bit like TOR users thinking they can't be tracked, it actually is like sticking up flaming beacon saying come and get me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 What do you guys intend to do with your bitcoin, long term? What is your motivation for owning BTC, do you use it for the intended purpose, as a currency, or do you use it as a store of wealth? If as a store of wealth, what do you think underpins the wealth and what is your exit strategy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doomed Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 7 minutes ago, dugsbody said: What do you guys intend to do with your bitcoin, long term? What is your motivation for owning BTC, do you use it for the intended purpose, as a currency, or do you use it as a store of wealth? If as a store of wealth, what do you think underpins the wealth and what is your exit strategy? My plan is to hold it until I am forced to sell it. I see our current monetary system as completely unsustainable due to the massive government debts and unfunded promises. There are also may other issues such as demographics and shrinking tax base due to job destruction via technology. In the medium to long term governments are going to have a choice between hyperinflation by printing currency to cover bad debts, or allow defaults destroying a huge amount of perceived wealth. In the short term I expect them to tax/steal any wealth they can from the middle class and lower classes by any means available to attempt to plug the gaps. I see Bitcoin as a way to opt out the systems they control and allow me to leave with my money if I so desire. There are a lot of smart people working in this space with the goal of removing the controls governments and banks have over the economy and I believe they will succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darby Ram Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 38 minutes ago, dugsbody said: What do you guys intend to do with your bitcoin, long term? What is your motivation for owning BTC, do you use it for the intended purpose, as a currency, or do you use it as a store of wealth? If as a store of wealth, what do you think underpins the wealth and what is your exit strategy? I see cryptocurrencies as a new kind of asset class, with aspects of a currency, a startup offering equity in a network and a store-of-wealth (digital gold). I've used Bitcoin as a currency and, once you have made the (expensive and inconvenient) jump from fiat, it is incredibly convenient and frictionless. Long-term, I see it as part of a much broader portfolio and have rebalanced away from Bitcoin several times already. As for what underpins the store of wealth idea for cryptocurrencies, it simply comes down to: is access to the underlying protocol useful enough that owning Bitcoin/Ether something that people will want to do now or in the future? If you think that the economy is being weighed down by rent-seeking and gate-keeping then cryptocurrencies are an amazing play on the ways that people will start to route around those obstacles and reclaim some of that economic value. There's a great explanation of how fat protocols will allow the value that's currently being scooped by the likes of Facebook to, instead, be redistributed to the network that allows a Facebook to exist in the first place. My exit strategy is to watch the sector, rebalance as necessary, but to stay invested at a sensible proportion of net worth while the economic logic plays out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jiltedjen Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I know the basics of money creation (how the system works) i have have a good grasp on history therefore I will hold bitcoin until i don't have to exchange it for fiat. I also hope that by holding multi bitcoin, I will one day be seriously wealthy. I hope we can reverse the Rot of our current corrupt banking system, and restart humanities progress. how much time and effort has been wasted to bankers. in bad investments. bring back the march of progress. To break the grip of banks looked impossible. They had total control, create as much money as they like, force us into slavery by driving up the cost of essentials like shelter. control the press. blackmail and corrupt governments, steal in every way possible, they get bailed out again by the people they robbed. Then force these 'banks care about you' adverts onto you, just to make sure they add salt to the wounds. all a horrible future ahead. Reducing living standards as they sucked in more and more of our wages and devalue our savings. then realised with an article on bank bailouts, there was Bitcoin. an enemy the banks could never kill, as they would give it too much credibility. They know bitcoin will eat their lunch within 30 years. And if it takes a ragtag army of individuals to just believe a little, that's what I will do. and you should also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenDevil Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 I would be very wary about putting a signicant net worth into a computer asset that be hacked, lost on a memory stick or changed at a later date. It will never be adopted by the bankers. They may bring in futures so it can be manipulated. If you bought years back well done, but at 1000 bucks, its another risky bubble. Ive taken a punt a little back, 5k might make me rich in ten years but hopefully i won't lose a shirt. Its a punt and I expect to hold or lose. Gold and equities look more attractive. Physical Gold more so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted January 7, 2017 Share Posted January 7, 2017 Thank you. The thing that is puzzling me, or has puzzled me for the last few years, is that bitcoin is supposed to be money, and while some people seem to believe it can replace government backed fiat, they are not treating it as such. They are treating it as a store of wealth. They don't spend it (most don't). And since it is deflationary (ie. the "value" of one BTC will increase over time) they are acting rationally by hoarding it instead of spending it. But this is self defeating. How is their any underlying value in something which by its very nature defeats its own purpose? And so, it seems to me that is can either serve its purpose, as money, and so have some value or it doesn't serve its purpose as money, and in this case the entire foundation as a store of wealth is built only on nothing more than confidence that other people will continue to feel the same way. That seems just a few short steps away from going to zero. On top of that, people must know this, and yet it continues to retain its "price". A conundrum for me. Many on this forum feel the same way about house prices though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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