Traktion

If the majority of people want a federal USofE, then I don't have a fundamental objection to that. What I object to, is it arriving via the back door, when most people in the UK don't seem to want it. Ofc, I have my own opinions on what I would prefer (and would vote for).

There are many similarities. Both are a union of sorts. Both result in a nationalism of sorts too. However, the regions which make up the UK are already in a very close union (with ISO country definition), with many powers centralised at the union level (core taxation/spending, defence and so forth). The EU on the other hand is not and does not. We can debate the merits of whether the EU should become a federal USofE, with each country ceeding their right to be an independent country in a similar way. However, this sort of relinquishing of sovereignty should absolutely be considered differently to just 'remaining' in the EU.

Nope. Play the ball, not the man.

Its not about me.

I didn't say the trading block, I said a trading block. I'm not against forming various deals to best suit the needs of the country - on the contrary. The attributes you give to the EU are exactly those which make me want to be distanced from it.

I can't see how my desire has such an impact in either.

It is still the same nationalism regardless. The EU hasn't fundamentally changed this.

That's the problem. I'm perfectly happy with being a member of a trading block. Whatever the EU now is (something between trading block and USofE, heading towards the latter), I don't want to be a part of it.

Creating a bigger nation to be nationalistic about does not break down nationalism. It just moves the goal posts.

We also have the internet, where people can communicate instantly with anyone in Europe and beyond. Communication is what helps people to see why there are more similarities than differences. As I'm sure many others do, I have friends all over Europe and the US. Could I ever see myself going to war with any of them? The level of propaganda required could not be believable enough and the levels required.

If the EU starts owning aircraft carriers, it goes beyond cooperating. It also goes way beyond what a trading block should ever need. It is fine for USofE, but some remainers tell us to fear not, as that will never happen.

I find that view shocking. It would be unprecedented afaik. To encourage it and argue it is weird to suggest it is a cause for concern is pretty nuts. This stuff is far from a trade block and is getting closer to a USofE. To wave it away is either irresponsible or disingenuous.

Maybe that is ok for now though. It doesn't need to be done in one big bite, especially if the sceptics need to be convinced it is a tenable future. There is a desire from some in the pro brexit camp to grab as much brexit as possible, for fear that the remainers will try to overturn it. It is an understandable strategy, but it ends up polarizing the debate and the populous. Finding a middle ground may actually result in less momuntum to remain/rejoin. This middle ground can change and evolve and politicians may be wise to consider this.

It takes years to enact a decision like brexit. It is childish to think otherwise.

If the EU just say no to an extension, it would also seem inevitable too. I wonder how long people and businesses and prepared to wait on a deal. It can't be healthy having such a big cloud of uncertainty hanging over it. How long before they start backing just leaving, over waiting for the seemingly impossible?

It is all about the message. Those who fear no deal have done a very good job in marketing it as nothing but disastrous. It seems to me that no deal is just another sort of deal. It means that there will be a hard break and pressure on to define a new agreement, but the EU mandated this - they insisted there would be no negotiation of future relations until the withdrawal agreement is complete. Very convenient! I guess that may now back fire though, as it will harm both parties. Perhaps the EU over played their hand here, by trying make no deal as undesirable as possible to push the WA to their agenda.

I'm not sure the EU has the appetite for further extensions, especially considering the deadlock in parliament. Each delay just causes more plans to be put on hold on all sides. Unless the final goal is worth waiting for (which I doubt), they just need to get on with no deal and fix forward.

So, May's deal or no deal, by the looks of it. I doubt May will get the support and must surely immediately throw certainty behind no deal and help to explain impact, etc.

Fewer border, yes. More democratic representation? I'm not so convinced. I'd rather have lots of weak borders (edit: where trade and magration occurs) and local representation, than fewer borders and distant representation. As much as my opinion may differ with various protests, the fact that most people can travel with some ease to London to do it feels reassuring. I'm not so sure so many would get on a plane and fly to Brussels. I'm also unsure whether a contingency from one small region would have as much of an impact either.

I agree that society isn't ready for a stateless society where the non-aggression principle is the foundation, but it is the only way you are going to get borders. The USoE will have them too, much like the EU does now.

O2 had bolt-ons for EU roaming before it was part of law, IIRC. It was a few quid extra a month. Now that price had been added to every bill, whether you need it or not. There is no free lunch.

If it does indeed become a federal USoE, I suspect it will behave just as other nations have before it. I am unconvinced that a big nation brings people together either. Fundamentally, people tend to identify most with others in their locality. I would also fear my democratic voice being drowned out by many others. I do think that trade and migration are both excellent ways to keep good relations. However, I don't believe we must all be part of one big nation to accomplish this.

You don't think that is behaving like a nation?

The EU is just another form of nationalism at the layer above. You see this, right?

By putting a big border around the edge of it and slapping on tariffs. They definitely don't want to let people from NI move freely to the RoI unless they remain in the club. If you are serious about no borders, then you need to remove the reason to need them - the state's taxing and spending. Just making a bigger state, does not fundamentally address this.