rollover Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: Most here thought that the Iraq invasion was wholly unwarranted. It's what happens when you let guys detached from reality and wannabe's (Blair) take command. Putin is another good example of such a person, but on steroids. To boot, he is now trying to starve the 3rd world with his antics. How very caring of him...he needs to go....preferably at the hands of his own people. We all know who is the bad guy in this conflict...that is Putin. Rolling out previous villans does not excuse Putin's actions. I think, I know what you are talking about ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 2 hours ago, rollover said: Clearly Bush did not say the Invasion was Justified, he made a slip that demonstrates he is human and perhaps the Iraq invasion weighs heavy on his heart. Interesting that it gets twisted by one of our resident PooTin apologists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 7 minutes ago, satsuma said: Clearly Bush did not say the Invasion was Justified, he made a slip that demonstrates he is human and perhaps the Iraq invasion weighs heavy on his heart. Interesting that it gets twisted by one of our resident PooTin apologists. Are you a Iraq war apologist? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 56 minutes ago, rollover said: G.W. Bush was also the primary, I believe, pusher for NATO expanding eastwards, which in my opinion was an unnecessary threat to Russia. Just being realistic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 11 minutes ago, Si1 said: G.W. Bush was also the primary, I believe, pusher for NATO expanding eastwards, which in my opinion was an unnecessary threat to Russia. Just being realistic. It was his father ... Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.” nsarchive Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 1 minute ago, rollover said: It was his father ... Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.” nsarchive Yeah. Not a smart move. Mind you Russia's invasion of Ukraine was waaaay worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 13 minutes ago, Si1 said: Yeah. Not a smart move. Mind you Russia's invasion of Ukraine was waaaay worse. What do you mean? In context of pressing ahead with expansion of NATO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Si1 said: G.W. Bush was also the primary, I believe, pusher for NATO expanding eastwards, which in my opinion was an unnecessary threat to Russia. Just being realistic. With hindsight, it looks like a sensible policy. If Germany and France hadn't dragged their feet on admitting Ukraine they wouldn't be at war today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Si1 said: Yeah. Not a smart move. Mind you Russia's invasion of Ukraine was waaaay worse. They were just general discussions about a future that included Russia not threatening the Ex Soviet Union states. That world didn't happen, so the discussions were never followed up on and almost all the western Ex soviet states asked to be admitted to NATO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 5 hours ago, Si1 said: Yeah. Not a smart move. Mind you Russia's invasion of Ukraine was waaaay worse. Indeed, this invasion will sink Russia altogether. I can see China taking over the country in the next year or so. Hopefully Russians see sense and get rid of PooTin before it gets to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 Boris Johnson risks pushing Putin towards 'tactical nuclear strike' The UK government's policy aims in the Ukraine war are pushing Vladimir Putin into a corner and could precipitate a nuclear strike, a Lord Skidelsky has claimed. He said: “British policy aims for a Russian military defeat which it will help bring about by economic sanctions and by supplying the Ukraine with necessary means of war. “It is an open secret that both France and Germany regard our hawkishness as driving up the price of peace and thus making a ceasefire more elusive. “I believe that Putin’s war aims, unlike Hitler’s, are limited and that therefore the fashionable domino theory – that if you give way here then one after another will fall – is wrong.” He added: “If it happens that Russian conventional forces were actually pushed to defeat as the prime minister and foreign secretary want, Russia might well counter with tactical nuclear weapons. Yahoo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingAwake Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 11 minutes ago, rollover said: Boris Johnson risks pushing Putin towards 'tactical nuclear strike' The UK government's policy aims in the Ukraine war are pushing Vladimir Putin into a corner and could precipitate a nuclear strike, a Lord Skidelsky has claimed. He said: “British policy aims for a Russian military defeat which it will help bring about by economic sanctions and by supplying the Ukraine with necessary means of war. “It is an open secret that both France and Germany regard our hawkishness as driving up the price of peace and thus making a ceasefire more elusive. “I believe that Putin’s war aims, unlike Hitler’s, are limited and that therefore the fashionable domino theory – that if you give way here then one after another will fall – is wrong.” He added: “If it happens that Russian conventional forces were actually pushed to defeat as the prime minister and foreign secretary want, Russia might well counter with tactical nuclear weapons. Yahoo What does 'victory' or 'defeat' mean here anyway? Putin's aims were so vague that virtually anything could be sold as a victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 8 hours ago, shlomo said: +1 The Guardian: Russian soldier asks Ukrainian widow to forgive him during first war crimes trial. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/19/vadim-shishimarin-russian-soldier-asks-ukrainian-widow-to-forgive-him-during-first-war-crimes-trial "“I acknowledge my blame … I ask you to forgive me,” he told the widow, Kateryna Shalipova, on Thursday. Dressed in a tracksuit, his shaved head lowered, Shishimarin cut a forlorn spectacle in a glass booth for defendants. He spoke calmly, but looked frightened." "Shalipova told the court she would not object if Shishimarin was released to Russia as part of a prisoner swap to get “our boys” out of the port city of Mariupol, a reference to hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers who have given themselves up to Russia." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 6 hours ago, rollover said: What do you mean? In context of pressing ahead with expansion of NATO. Well it's a bit late now for Russia - NATO will expand to its borders. I'm sorry if that frightens you, I only hope the citizens of NATO countries act as a conscience so as not to abuse or threaten Russia as a result of this Bush pushing for an expansion of NATO had little to gain and Russia's trust to lose. However Russia's invasion has cost Ukraine and Russia 100s of billions of dollars, and tens of thousands of lives. It is very sad. And whilst Putin or his associates run Russia then Russia will he a pariah state like a big version of North Korea. Such a shame for such a beautiful country with beautiful people and culture. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 10 hours ago, Staffsknot said: Don't forget the Canon consumer DSLR that was in older models and glued in place - Canon had no knowledge but damn them and their inkjets, burn their counter at Argos! Oh wait we sold stuff to the Russians too... including post Crimea... The French sensor is Mil Spec and sold only as such. It's not available over the counter so there has been deliberate sanctions busting. The date of manufacture, was for the Drone not the sensor, the original tweet clarified that. The sensor does predate the 2014 sanctions, I cannot imagine its the manufacturer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 6 hours ago, rollover said: It was his father ... Declassified documents show security assurances against NATO expansion to Soviet leaders from Baker, Bush, Genscher, Kohl, Gates, Mitterrand, Thatcher, Hurd, Major, and Woerner The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.” nsarchive You guys signed the NATO Founding Act 1991(?) Where you formally and legally agreed that the former occupied States of Eastern and Central Europe can join. NATO and in return NATO would not place missiles in those states. Are you reneging on the international treaty now, you want missiles in the Baltics ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 1 hour ago, rollover said: Boris Johnson risks pushing Putin towards 'tactical nuclear strike' The UK government's policy aims in the Ukraine war are pushing Vladimir Putin into a corner and could precipitate a nuclear strike, a Lord Skidelsky has claimed. He said: “British policy aims for a Russian military defeat which it will help bring about by economic sanctions and by supplying the Ukraine with necessary means of war. “It is an open secret that both France and Germany regard our hawkishness as driving up the price of peace and thus making a ceasefire more elusive. “I believe that Putin’s war aims, unlike Hitler’s, are limited and that therefore the fashionable domino theory – that if you give way here then one after another will fall – is wrong.” He added: “If it happens that Russian conventional forces were actually pushed to defeat as the prime minister and foreign secretary want, Russia might well counter with tactical nuclear weapons. Yahoo Another lying Russian making threats to get their own way What a surprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 9 minutes ago, Peter Hun said: Another lying Russian making threats to get their own way What a surprise. These people are all Russian apologists sent to undermine opposition to the very important work of defeating Russia and sending them home. Russia hoped for a walk over in Ukraine and part of that is the cyber propaganda war to bend the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shlomo Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 49 minutes ago, Si1 said: The Guardian: Russian soldier asks Ukrainian widow to forgive him during first war crimes trial. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/19/vadim-shishimarin-russian-soldier-asks-ukrainian-widow-to-forgive-him-during-first-war-crimes-trial "“I acknowledge my blame … I ask you to forgive me,” he told the widow, Kateryna Shalipova, on Thursday. Dressed in a tracksuit, his shaved head lowered, Shishimarin cut a forlorn spectacle in a glass booth for defendants. He spoke calmly, but looked frightened." "Shalipova told the court she would not object if Shishimarin was released to Russia as part of a prisoner swap to get “our boys” out of the port city of Mariupol, a reference to hundreds of Ukrainian soldiers who have given themselves up to Russia." He is only a kid, he should be chasing girls in newscastle not be in a war, the system that makes us kill each other is to blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satsuma Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 4 minutes ago, shlomo said: He is only a kid, he should be chasing girls in newscastle not be in a war, the system that makes us kill each other is to blame. Not sure any of these Russians are kids in the sense that we know it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shlomo Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 Just now, satsuma said: Not sure any of these Russians are kids in the sense that we know it What makes them different? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Si1 Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 1 minute ago, shlomo said: What makes them different? I guess they come from more desperate hopeless circumstances and have seen more abuse and brutalisation than western kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 2 hours ago, FallingAwake said: What does 'victory' or 'defeat' mean here anyway? Putin's aims were so vague that virtually anything could be sold as a victory. Putin's aims were clear to conquer Ukraine and cleanse the population of Nazis (i.e. anyone who didn't want to be subservient to Russia). What he will settle for is less clear but we won't find that out until Russia is on the retreat and needs an out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayphil Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 3 hours ago, satsuma said: Indeed, this invasion will sink Russia altogether. I can see China taking over the country in the next year or so. Hopefully Russians see sense and get rid of PooTin before it gets to that. Wouldn't be surprised if China came to some form of agreement to but arable land, or something like that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grayphil Posted May 19, 2022 Share Posted May 19, 2022 54 minutes ago, Si1 said: I guess they come from more desperate hopeless circumstances and have seen more abuse and brutalisation than western kids. I'm going for a solid no on this. Speaking as someone who has spent lots of time on Russian border towns, they don't exactly have Child fighting pits, where they only survive by killing and eating their other child enemies. They are kids, the same as our kids that join the army at 16 without a clue what to do with life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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