MARTINX9 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 5 hours ago, Cocha said: What was the supposed conspiracy at Hillsborough? Bob8 - has inadvertently of course disproved his argument. At Hillsborough we were told to swallow the official vews - as expressed by that person he spoke to - all down to a load of violent thuggish Liverpool fans. All fed via the police, the government at the time and the media. Of course it turned out not to be the truth at all! His argument seems to be that if you don't simply accept everything the media, government, and other authorities puts forward all the time you must be a conspiracy theorist. I might suggest wishing to question and expose nonsense arguments and frankly often complete BS is actually the sign of a human with a brain. The aftermath of Hillsborough proves that exactly - delve just a little and the official story turns out to be a pack of lies! If the last two years tells you nothing - its that we should never simply accept what we are told. I have just pointed out two examples in the last 24 hours - re Trudeau's mask wearing (essential to wear a mask - except when you are meeting a 95 year old woman face to face indoors) and Ireland's miraculous u-turn on all Covid travel restrictions which mere weeks ago were vital to public health. When its expedient to disregard these essential rules - they do so - which of course suggests they were never in many cases needed at all and certainly not for fit and healthy people under 50! Edited March 9, 2022 by MARTINX9 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 13 minutes ago, Cocha said: I'm aware of how mild some of the adverse effects can be, equally some of them not so. I don't give a toss who does or doesn't have a jab, nor how many. But it should be personal choice. The efforts from the government to force these onto the public, whilst either being aware of potential issue with the jabs, or not having done sufficient due diligence themselves, is the issue I have. We would be more patient with you writing this nonsense if you could do the same for Covid-19, i.e. it ranges from harmless, to minor, to serious to deadly. On balance, it is for almost everyone considerable safer to be vaccinated than not. If you cannot grasp that level of nuance, which a non-retarded child would grasp, then you cannot expect us to believe it is other peoples' fault that you do not get intelligent debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 13 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said: Bob8 - has inadvertently of course disproved his argument. At Hillsborough we were told to swallow the official vews - as expressed by that person he spoke to - all down to a load of violent thuggish Liverpool fans. All fed via the police, the government at the time and the media. Of course it turned out not to be the truth at all! His argument seems to be that if you don't simply accept everything the media, government, and other authorities puts forward all the time you must be a conspiracy theorist. I might suggest wishing to question and expose nonsense arguments and frankly often complete BS is actually the sign of a human with a brain. The aftermath of Hillsborough proves that exactly - delve just a little and the official story turns out to be a pack of lies! If the last two years tells you nothing - its that we should never simply accept what we are told. I have just pointed out two examples in the last 24 hours - re Trudeau's mask wearing (essential to wear a mask - except when you are meeting a 95 year old woman face to face indoors) and Ireland's miraculous u-turn on all Covid travel restrictions which mere weeks ago were vital to public health. When its expedient to disregard these essential rules - they do so - which of course suggests they were never in many cases needed at all and certainly not for fit and healthy people under 50! I took you off Ignore and I rememered why you were on. My post was acknowledging that people and Governments do conspire. How you think that means I was arguing that they do not is between you and your vacuous skull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 18 minutes ago, Bob8 said: We would be more patient with you writing this nonsense if you could do the same for Covid-19, i.e. it ranges from harmless, to minor, to serious to deadly. On balance, it is for almost everyone considerable safer to be vaccinated than not. If you cannot grasp that level of nuance, which a non-retarded child would grasp, then you cannot expect us to believe it is other peoples' fault that you do not get intelligent debate. Where have I claimed otherwise? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 33 minutes ago, MARTINX9 said: Bob8 - has inadvertently of course disproved his argument. At Hillsborough we were told to swallow the official vews - as expressed by that person he spoke to - all down to a load of violent thuggish Liverpool fans. All fed via the police, the government at the time and the media. Of course it turned out not to be the truth at all! His argument seems to be that if you don't simply accept everything the media, government, and other authorities puts forward all the time you must be a conspiracy theorist. I might suggest wishing to question and expose nonsense arguments and frankly often complete BS is actually the sign of a human with a brain. The aftermath of Hillsborough proves that exactly - delve just a little and the official story turns out to be a pack of lies! If the last two years tells you nothing - its that we should never simply accept what we are told. I have just pointed out two examples in the last 24 hours - re Trudeau's mask wearing (essential to wear a mask - except when you are meeting a 95 year old woman face to face indoors) and Ireland's miraculous u-turn on all Covid travel restrictions which mere weeks ago were vital to public health. When its expedient to disregard these essential rules - they do so - which of course suggests they were never in many cases needed at all and certainly not for fit and healthy people under 50! Well certainly not all of it. But that doesn't also mean that no Liverpool fans whatsoever played some part in the horrific events and tragic deaths of 96 innocent fans that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingAwake Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) 11 hours ago, Bob8 said: I do not think any reasonable person denies conspiracies exist. But, people who have experience of the grown up world (rather than being side lined from society for whatever reason) will realise that a conspiracy that involves health care workers across the world, scientists across the world, and loads of people genuinely believing they are ill does rather stretch credulity. This is a classic fallacy. It implies that lots of people must know and be in on the conspiracy, for it to work. Not true. To give one real-life example. I watch Kitboga on Youtube, who baits scammers and wastes their time, so they don't also have time to phone up your grandmother and try to steal her money. Most of the low-level operators believe they're providing a genuine service, i.e. working to help remove hackers and viruses from your computer. These operators set up access to the person's computer, and then they pass on the call to a senior-level "technician", who does the actual scam. In other words, you have compartmentalisation. The scam is done by a small number of people "at the top" as it were. The operators who initially answer the phone calls don't necessarily know they're even working for a scam company. Similarly, for the scammers at the top, it's in their interest not to tell people they're scammers. "What do you do?" "Oh, I rob old ladies of their savings." Right? So there is a natural reason to keep quiet, and this is over monetary amounts that are measured in thousands or millions rather than billions. In the case of nurses, doctors and the medical industry, most are trained to follow the training and instructions they have been given. They have strong disincentives for stepping out of line. For example, how easy is it to question vaccines if you're a doctor? I know in the US many of them can literally lose their jobs and license over things like that. So the idea that lots of health care workers need to be "in on" any scam or conspiracy is... a fallacy. Yet for some reason, this fallacy gets repeated over and over and over again with little thought. Hmm. Edited March 9, 2022 by FallingAwake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingAwake Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 (edited) duplicate Edited March 9, 2022 by FallingAwake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 19 minutes ago, Cocha said: Well certainly not all of it. But that doesn't also mean that no Liverpool fans whatsoever played some part in the horrific events and tragic deaths of 96 innocent fans that day. FFS. Another piece of human vermin on Ignore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 10 minutes ago, Bob8 said: FFS. Another piece of human vermin on Ignore. Oh noes 😥 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 hour ago, Cocha said: I don't give a toss who does or doesn't have a jab, nor how many. But it should be personal choice. Quite right. But that's completely different point from what you said above and what I was responding to, i.e.: 2 hours ago, Cocha said: These will just be written off as collateral damage by the 'If lockdown saves just one life it is worth it' types. 1 hour ago, Cocha said: The efforts from the government to force these onto the public, whilst either being aware of potential issue with the jabs, or not having done sufficient due diligence themselves, is the issue I have. You seem to have simply assumed that no-one analysed the adverse effect data, or if they did analyse them they pushed out the vaccines unwisely. Why have you just assumed that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 8 minutes ago, scottbeard said: Quite right. But that's completely different point from what you said above and what I was responding to, i.e.: You seem to have simply assumed that no-one analysed the adverse effect data, or if they did analyse them they pushed out the vaccines unwisely. Why have you just assumed that? I don't get you. To be aware of potential issues, then the adverse effect data must have been analysed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 20 minutes ago, scottbeard said: Quite right. But that's completely different point from what you said above and what I was responding to, i.e.: You seem to have simply assumed that no-one analysed the adverse effect data, or if they did analyse them they pushed out the vaccines unwisely. Why have you just assumed that? To be fair, I am not suure he can have assumed that. I think it is a case of pretending. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 33 minutes ago, Cocha said: I don't get you. To be aware of potential issues, then the adverse effect data must have been analysed. OK let me come at this another way then - you said: "The efforts from the government to force these onto the public, whilst either being aware of potential issue with the jabs, or not having done sufficient due diligence themselves, is the issue I have." On what basis do you conclude that either: (1) the government was aware of a potential issue that made rolling out jabs a bad thing but didn't act on it or (2) the government did not do sufficient due diligence? When I had my first jab (an AZ) it was quite clearly explained to me that there was a high risk of mild side effects and a low risk (c 1 in 250,000) of bad side effects like blood clots. It was explained to me what a blood clot would feel like and what i should do if I thought that happened to me. I was asked if, given this, I still wanted the jab and I said yes. I don't understand where all this "aha now it turns out there are lot of side effects being swept under the carpet!" stuff has come from, or what you think should have been done differently? Meanwhile, since we started rolling out vaccines, the number of deaths and hospitalisations plummeted, even before the milder Omicron variant came around, suggesting that the vaccines did a great job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, scottbeard said: OK let me come at this another way then - you said: "The efforts from the government to force these onto the public, whilst either being aware of potential issue with the jabs, or not having done sufficient due diligence themselves, is the issue I have." On what basis do you conclude that either: (1) the government was aware of a potential issue that made rolling out jabs a bad thing but didn't act on it or (2) the government did not do sufficient due diligence? When I had my first jab (an AZ) it was quite clearly explained to me that there was a high risk of mild side effects and a low risk (c 1 in 250,000) of bad side effects like blood clots. It was explained to me what a blood clot would feel like and what i should do if I thought that happened to me. I was asked if, given this, I still wanted the jab and I said yes. I don't understand where all this "aha now it turns out there are lot of side effects being swept under the carpet!" stuff has come from, or what you think should have been done differently? Meanwhile, since we started rolling out vaccines, the number of deaths and hospitalisations plummeted, even before the milder Omicron variant came around, suggesting that the vaccines did a great job. Well as long as the information which has now come out was given to people prior to them having a pfizer jab, then fair enough. From speaking to people who have, this didn't appear to be the case. I'll ask them why they didn't tell me this originally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 28 minutes ago, Cocha said: Well as long as the information which has now come out was given to people prior to them having a pfizer jab, then fair enough. From speaking to people who have, this didn't appear to be the case. I'll ask them why they didn't tell me this originally. If you had a jab, do you still have the little leaflet that they gave you on the day of the jab? I kept mine just for future interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 1 minute ago, scottbeard said: If you had a jab, do you still have the little leaflet that they gave you on the day of the jab? I kept mine just for future interest. Most posters on this thread are pond life. On other matters, the paper is not yet in press and is a one off at present, but does present further evidence of Wuhan market being the site. https://zenodo.org/record/6291628#.YijjQN_cBOh As I said, far from a smoking gun, but an interesting indication. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cocha Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 12 minutes ago, scottbeard said: If you had a jab, do you still have the little leaflet that they gave you on the day of the jab? I kept mine just for future interest. No I didn't have a jab, as I heard nothing about the potential downsides, only the supposed good ones while the government were relentlessly pushing the jabs and there are always going to be some potential downsides. Like I say, I'll ask those I know who had pfizer and were pushing me to have some why they didn't just give me this info they were told and given when they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Moderators Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 3 hours ago, Bob8 said: FFS. Another piece of human vermin on Ignore. 35 minutes ago, Bob8 said: Most posters on this thread are pond life. Guidelines - House Price Crash Forum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallingAwake Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 Covid: Austria suspends compulsory vaccination mandate https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60681288 The mandate was introduced partly because of Austria's relatively low vaccination rate - 70% of Austria's 8.9 million people are double-vaccinated and 54% have also had a booster So they were planning to fine 30% of their population? 🤣 B O L D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 26 minutes ago, The Moderators said: Guidelines - House Price Crash Forum You noticed those and not the rest of this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 39 minutes ago, FallingAwake said: Covid: Austria suspends compulsory vaccination mandate https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60681288 The mandate was introduced partly because of Austria's relatively low vaccination rate - 70% of Austria's 8.9 million people are double-vaccinated and 54% have also had a booster So they were planning to fine 30% of their population? 🤣 B O L D. It always looked like an empty threat. Not that that makes it any less repugnant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.steve Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 20 hours ago, scottbeard said: Oh there ARE real conspiracies, just as there are real lottery winners. Remind me is it 1 in 13 million still or has it gone up to 1 in 39 million now? 🙂 I don't agree that identifying criminal conduct is analogous to predicting a securely generated random number. Of course, I'm aware, if that random number, used for the lottery, were not genuinely random, that would require a conspiracy... all be it, a lucrative one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A.steve Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 5 hours ago, Bob8 said: On balance, it is for almost everyone considerable safer to be vaccinated than not. Can you prove that without relying on appeal to (a particular choice of) authority? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob8 Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 21 minutes ago, A.steve said: Can you prove that without relying on appeal to (a particular choice of) authority? As in, will I just refer to the official figures and published research? No, but I think that is the best evidence we have. I have previously referred to family and a friend with direct experience, but this is not acceptable to your sort either. At some point, the issue is in your brain rather than the data. That might be worth reflecting on https://www.yalemedicine.org/news/covid-19-vaccine-comparison https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/publications-data/interim-analysis-covid-19-vaccine-effectiveness-against-severe-acute-respiratory https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/who-can-take-the-pfizer-biontech-covid-19--vaccine-what-you-need-to-know https://www.who.int/news-room/feature-stories/detail/the-moderna-covid-19-mrna-1273-vaccine-what-you-need-to-know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arpeggio Posted March 9, 2022 Share Posted March 9, 2022 20 hours ago, A.steve said: There's a problem with theories - they all too often look like conspiracy theories... and everyone knows that no two individuals have ever conspired in all of recorded history. As for your 'from a biolab' specifics... I guess that depends what you consider a 'biolab' to be. Every idea comes from somewhere... even if we can't pinpoint exactly where. When I contemplate this sort of thing, I am acutely aware that understanding motivations is key. I note that, if one can establish fear using only a story, does the story need to be true? Of course not, and not only that; an untrue foundation at the root has a unique advantage that you can branch out from it. You can't do this any where as easily with the metaphorical roots of truth anchored into the ground; the various branches will not be well fed unless of the same type; people will be harder to convince as they have a reference. However the branches of the former can tangle by virtue of the root, in the absence of a person's awareness of the root. An example would be the stories from 2020 that you can catch Covid again and again and again (still around today). At the time the concept of natural immunity was barely spoken about with that same subject. Fast forward a year or so and we have a 2 new branches growing; The vaccine and cause to acknowledge natural immunity as part of this context. As others have posted here, Natural Immunity to be found 700% greater protection than shot according to data from Israeli Govt. * If PCR tests do not detect a virus (Any stress on the body provokes us to make more antibodies and have more degraded genetic material in our blood and other fluids, more detail here) then a branch grows; the idea of "catching covid again and again" becomes "plausible", and natural immunity suddenly isn't contemplated? Fast forward a bit more and people who are vaccinated can catch Covid again and again, are testing positive etc. & the stories say; although the vaccine "doesn't stop the spread", it assuages severity of illness. Something which is hard to argue for if you look at the official data on hospitalizations and deaths from multiple countries. Where does this all leave us? Principals for ad nauseam by the same argument we locked down in the first place. That is where. The vaccinated start to give the branches of the tree a weird look. ....................and so Putin bulldozes the tree. * You won't see me posting articles about natural immunity in the context of viruses, I am consistent to lack of Sars-Cov-2 isolation. I can level on here about the branches of this rotten tree as they tangle. I suppose you could go into similar for Weapons of Mass destruction or that you would go to hell if you don't go to church. 20 hours ago, A.steve said: If one wanted to engineer fear, what would you call the place that is done? Fear Factory? I've never really been into that band myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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