Am I Going To Be The First Hpc Divorce?

[the_duke_of_hazzard]

She just announced today she wants a divorce.

Why? –

Because all her friends and family ‘and mine apparently!’ have been telling her we are idiots for renting and that we are crazy and are throwing money away. (£750 per month for 4 bed detached in nice new area, )

I find this really hard to believe. Are you serious? If so, it seems a bit crazy - you have a roof over your heads, and what is going to leave you for - is she going to buy a property on her own?

[paradox]

Good luck Big Al,

On women and nesting, I think a lot of it comes down to imagination. We "owned" a flat with an uncomfortably large mortgage. My wife is a great nester but she felt that we lacked space.

Now we rent somewhere twice as big, unfurnished. We have put pictures up and changed the curtains (not forgetting to invoice the landlord). All our furniture is in place. In many ways we feel more at home here than in our previous flat. My wife certainly prefers it.

Ironically, I am the one who feels the UK obsession with renting. My wife is immune to this. Perhaps because she is from a different culture and has not bought in to the UK class / regional / tenure snobbery in which postcode, accent and tenure says all about you.

To all the women on here who are suggesting the following equation:

nesting = respect = borrowing from a bank to purchase a house = happiness

I would suggest that this is a particularly UK phenomenon. My wife was far more gung ho and happy to STR than I was.

[CrashedOutAndBurned]

She's going to leave him and break up the family because they're renting?

That's like those derranged loony-tunes that say they're going to top themselves if they don't get their way.

Either she's plain nuts or she's nobbin' someone else.

[Marina]

whoever you're thinking of it ain't me - I hadn't heard of this site till a few days ago!

Couldn't disagree more - take the people out and it's just a sterile room - which is where Al may find himself, smug in his STR but horribly sad and lonely!

I assume you are being deliberately thick for the sake of having something to say. What I said was 'a home is the people in it - not the place where they live.'

[Guest consa]

Consa,

I love your unreconstructed approach !

that's communication, and funnily enough, it usually works,

so long as you mix it with a lttle tenderness

Thanks Doc, just like to tell her the way it is, I'll give her some "tenderness" tonight if she is still there.

Mostly the "treat em mean keep em keen does work", but ti does need balancing as you say, romantic meal, gift etc... but never flowers!! thats too soppy.

[paradox]

QUOTE(BricksandMortar @ Jan 2 2006, 10:58 AM)

whoever you're thinking of it ain't me - I hadn't heard of this site till a few days ago!

Couldn't disagree more - take the people out and it's just a sterile room - which is where Al may find himself, smug in his STR but horribly sad and lonely!

Of all the posts in this thread Bricks and Mortar must be the worst. Unsympathetic, bitchy and unable to rise above the House Price Crash issues to see the real human story here.

Even the Uber Bear Dr Bubb was able to offer constructive advice that includes a range of options.

However all Bricks and Mortar can do is return to the tired old theme of smug STR etc etc etc.

Big Al sounds anything but smug. He sounds pretty depressed actually. Like all of us, he is only doing what seems the best thing to do. So why do you need to gloat???

Bricks and Mortar. Two questions.

1) are you married?

2) have you ever suffered a personal tragedy?

If the answer to the first question is positive - then good luck to your hubby

If the answer to your second question is positive - then you should feel ashamed of yourself - think back and remember how it felt, and then send some karma to Big Al

Alternatively, Bricks and Mortar, if you are not married then Consa might be on the look out soon. He sounds like just your kind of man.

Edited January 2, 2006 by paradox

[Big AL]

Many thanks for all the replies – especially those of support, I certainly started something here!

(Dr Bubb you know I’m not a Troll, we spoke at the Hatchet!)

Anyway I think whilst there is no easy answer, its defiantly a emotional not a financial issue as Bubb says.

To answer a few of the posters:

• sincerely mate - its another man Its definitely not anyone else involved (She is a home bird and never goes out, there is no evidence of this, phone calls text etc)

• fwiw - I can see why she's unhappy - £750 a month is a lot of rent - £750 maybe a lot in rent (Dead money) but we have effectively lived rent free for 9 months and netted more in the bank by investing.

• Why don't you just point out to her that if she divorces you, neither one of you will be able to buy a house True if we divorce it kind of makes the financial advantages gained so for seem irrelevant. NB two homes will be needed then for the same income!

• Is your missus normally a bit feisty? – No she is very calm rarely goes off on one.

• Ring relate and get marriage counselling before you do anything – Good idea, those guys are great at counselling.

• Print a few thousand HPC "When rent is not dead money" flyers and get her to hand them out to her clients - She thinks we are all a bunch of nutters!, don’t think that would work!

• I’ve tried to get my wife to visit this site and read, but she doesn’t seem interested – Ditto!

• Regarding Dr Bubbs posts and all who replied to him,- , thanks for comments, its all very useful and interesting I will formulate a plan and put it to her.

I think the general observations are that it needs to be a balanced agreed approach, one that we can both buy into.

Thanks again and will keep you all informed.

PS Anyone know any good dating web sites!

Big AL

[rockdoctor]

I had a 2-bed London flat at the top of 85 stairs (no lift). My wife and I loved the place and did lots of work on it - we both 'nested'. Then daughter one came along and it was still great, but a bit harder for my wife to cope - no garden for an active little girl, lots of stairs to carry her up with shopping.

Then wife was pregnant with daughter two and my job moved to Aberdeen, so I was flying up on Monday and only spending the weekend with her. She was going mad and so was I. Eventually I got another job in London and we started to house-hunt. Prices were going mad and eventually we realised we couldn't afford even the smallest 3-bed terrace in our area. The baby was due imminently so we sold the flat to the first serious buyer and moved into a local rented house - paid for entirely by the interest on the flat proceeds.

The baby was born 2 weeks later, and we had a fairly blissful 6 months. The landlord was fine, the house was OK (certainly better than the flat), we both believed houses were massively overpriced, despite planning to buy as soon as was sensible.

However, my wife wanted to buy even more than I did. She rightly argued that we had had enough instability in our lives and she wanted to start putting down deep roots (making friends with neighbours, getting kids into local school, remodelling house etc). All possible with renting, but somehow it feels more precarious and temporary.

We discussed the housing market in depth and I researched it as much as I could (hence my continuing addiction), but in the end we decided that all the money we had made on the flat might as well go into buying a house - effectively giving up the possibility of a big win on STR.

We did buy, changing area to reduce costs, and limiting the mortgage to 3.5 times my salary. So far no regrets, although prices are off by around 10% from when we bought in 2002.

I would say, 17 years of marriage, living with two kids is a lot to give up. If your wife is serious about the divorce threat (only you can tell us - my wife has once used the threat and with hindsight it wasn't serious, just the result of extreme anger) then I would seriously consider giving her what she wants. The alternative is likely to be far worse than having an unnecessary large mortgage.

But I would also dig deeper and find out whether the urge to 'nest' is really at the root of the threat. A lot of people (including good friends of mine) have been astounded to discover what their wives/partners have been up to behind their backs (my best mate's partner started an affair just before getting pregnant with their son, and continued the affair until he found out 2 months after the birth. She ended up marrying the guy and having a kid with him [the son was my mate's, he sees him on alternate weekends]).

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

Alternatively, Bricks and Mortar, if you are not married then Consa might be on the look out soon. He sounds like just your kind of man.

I will be honoured to act as his Best Man.

[Guest consa]

I will be honoured to act as his Best Man.

I'll hold you to that CTT - as long as B&M is female

and a pre-nuptual would have to be taken out, due to CTT post below!!

Edited January 2, 2006 by consa

[Guest Charlie The Tramp]

I'll hold you to that CTT - as long as B&M is female

Beware though, she could have a few BTLs.

[Sold up and Renting Abroad]

Hi Al,

I too am sorry to hear of your current situation - and hope for you and your wife that it'll sort itself out in the way you both want.

I haven't read all the posts, but these are my points from reading what I have;

1) Even though I am renting, I do personally believe that £750per month is too much on rent.

2) What if later on you are proved wrong about the housing market and she proved right, where would that leave the relationship (probably even worse than now as far as you're concerned) ?

3) If you're happy with your wife and love her and your wife is with you, then why not buy the house - if that's what she wants ?? It's only money anyway and she'll love you for it ?? It'll be your home, nest etc. Why rent if it makes her unhappy and now it's making your life an unhappy one as well ??

4) £80k isn't much in the scheme of things and I too agree that your lifestyle will whittle that away quick enough if you're not careful (and beauty salons are a luxury item that also get's hit hard in recession times).

I'm saying (and I am a bear !) that in this case, I'd look at buying something with the mind of making the wife happy (if you're planning on staying in that house for a decent amount of time, like at least 7-10years).

Just my 0.00002cents worth !!

Good luck with whatever you do.

[GCS15]

Big Al - I'm of the mind that her threat is a lame excuse and nothing more. There is no way anyone would leave after 17 years because you don't want to be burdened with a humungous mortgage.

In fact the more I think about it the more I'm convinced. "I'll leave if you don't buy a house" WTF? Threaten to leave because you won't buy a house? What's next? Going to leave because you didn't put the toilet seat down? Sounds like she's trying to make it all your fault.

Edit to add

My suggestion is to get to a gym and work out, Train hard at boxing (or whatever you prefer). Then if she does leave your already on the way to looking and feeling good, and if she is shacked up with your mate you can sort him out

But if she 'aint leaving or anything of the sort you'll still feel great.

Edited January 2, 2006 by GCS15

[BricksandMortar]

QUOTE(BricksandMortar @ Jan 2 2006, 10:58 AM)

whoever you're thinking of it ain't me - I hadn't heard of this site till a few days ago!

Couldn't disagree more - take the people out and it's just a sterile room - which is where Al may find himself, smug in his STR but horribly sad and lonely!

Of all the posts in this thread Bricks and Mortar must be the worst. Unsympathetic, bitchy and unable to rise above the House Price Crash issues to see the real human story here.

Even the Uber Bear Dr Bubb was able to offer constructive advice that includes a range of options.

However all Bricks and Mortar can do is return to the tired old theme of smug STR etc etc etc.

Big Al sounds anything but smug. He sounds pretty depressed actually. Like all of us, he is only doing what seems the best thing to do. So why do you need to gloat???

Bricks and Mortar. Two questions.

1) are you married?

2) have you ever suffered a personal tragedy?

If the answer to the first question is positive - then good luck to your hubby

If the answer to your second question is positive - then you should feel ashamed of yourself - think back and remember how it felt, and then send some karma to Big Al

Alternatively, Bricks and Mortar, if you are not married then Consa might be on the look out soon. He sounds like just your kind of man.

You are entitled to your opinion, but you couldn't be more wrong. I am trying to get him to listen to his wife, not the ravings of some unknowns with a housepricecrash theory. If you think my posts are the worst on here you need to go re-read!

Al, for the record - I am sad that your marriage is in trouble and genuinely hope you resolve your issues - 17 years of marriage is worth hanging on to.

[liquid]

I am not asking for advice as I will have to make some important decisions based on human emotions – this is the dam problem with this Housing situation, its screwing up lives! – There are more important things to worry about in life!

I would kindly suggest that you think twice when deciding to write more about your family crisis in public forum. It may no doubt give you some solace to express how you feel, but your children deserve better than to read, by off-chance, what is being said here. Much as I am entertained by certain replies, you do yourself a disservice if you are to compare your life to Corination Street.

As you have rightly said, the people that matter most and who will settle this turmoil are you and your wife. It is worth reminding her and you of the reasons that gave you cause to write what is in your signature. Good luck in your attempts to resolve this for the sake of your well being and that of your family.

[Fudge]

My now wife pressured me into buying a house in 1990, I knew it was a bad idea and suggested renting.

She wouldnt have it, said it was a waste of money. I gave in. We bought and our house dropped 40% in value over the following 4/5 years.

Funny thing is now she doesnt remember that it was her idea to buy and even suggests it was my fault.

Women, you can't live with em and you can't kill em!

[Catch22]

I would kindly suggest that you think twice when deciding to write more about your family crisis in public forum. It may no doubt give you some solace to express how you feel, but your children deserve better than to read, by off-chance, what is being said here. Much as I am entertained by certain replies, you do yourself a disservice if you are to compare your life to Corination Street.

As you have rightly said, the people that matter most and who will settle this turmoil are you and your wife. It is worth reminding her and you of the reasons that gave you cause to write what is in your signature. Good luck in your attempts to resolve this for the sake of your well being and that of your family.

Well said

[izzy]

Sorry to hear your bad news. Remember, the holidays are often the time when niggles erupt into major problems: when the routine starts again tomorrow, you both might be able to put this disagreement into perspective.

From a female view point, I think someone made a good point earlier when they said your wife's pride might be hurting by comparing herself with her customers and friends. Rightly or wrongly, we all do this and life can look pretty bleak if you're at the bottom of your social pecking order.

If I was your wife, the last thing I would want is someone belittling me when I already feel humiliated by the rest of my peer group. I think you need to acknowledge your wife's pain and verbally validate it. Make sure she knows that her happiness is of the utmost importance to you. (You can validate her feelings without giving in).

Once you have communicated to her how important her happiness is to you, try and build her self-image up in other ways. For example, have flowers delivered to her work. Start telling mutual friends how fantastic she is. Stop by her work and ask what she wants for dinner. Tell her how beautiful and special she is to you. i.e. make her the centre of attention (someone her friends / customers might envy) and you may restore the balance in your relationship.

Edited January 2, 2006 by izzy

[bpw]

You have two options:

buy the house and accept there is a price risk and that she may still leave you for other undeclared reasons, or.... well can I ask if you have a discrete garden in which you could lay a concrete slab? The later options is well tried and trusted and would be much cheaper.

Seriously, look her in the eye and ask if she is cheating, do the same with her friends. And, if she is not, go for councelling and do whatever it takes to reconcile. For example, move to a more fairly priced area, or consider moving overseas for a spell.

Let's face it we are all looking for a correction of around 20-30% in prices. I can't see that avoiding a spell of -ve equity is worth loosing your kids for.

[Guest horace]

to quote izzy

` Stop by her work and ask what she wants for dinner.`

unquote.

But izzy, what happens if Big al calls at her work and finds out she has gone for a matinee

performance?

horace.

[Bubble Pricker]

I am sorry to hear about your story, but I really do not think the buying question is the real reason. Whether to buy or not to buy may be a reason for some argument, but it is no reason for a divorce. This is clearly just an excuse put forward by your wife, and her real reasons must be more deeply rooted. She may not even know them herself.

[Yankee]

(It did occur to me that this posting might be a wind-up.

But I went and checked the profile, and BigAl has given information about his birthdate and where he lives, which I would next expect from a troll. So I will accept it as genuine.)

Big Al,

You must know the woman that you married all those years ago better than any of us. And that means you will be aware of her emotional and material needs. If her need is really to "buy a house", and it is based on emotion rather than rational reasons, you will have to deal with it, and not dismiss it. I would suggest councilling. (This can allow you both to see where the "key issues" really are, and how a balance can bee struck.). If the emotional need remains, then you will have to strike a balance- as others have here between the emotional need and the logical arguments. Dont forget: On your side, you have every right to say, "I have an emotional need, just as you do darling, and that is to avoid becoming a wage slave with no purpose but repaying a massive debts." Your emotional needs should be equal to hers: you both need to sleep at night.

Here are some tactics, and strategies:

+ Put money aside into a special account as a "deposit", and think of that as money that will represent 10%, 15%, 20%, 25% or whatever of the house you will buy. Let her see that the longer you wait, the bigger thios fund wil be.

+ Workout how much you can afford to pay in a monthly mortgage payment, one which has repayments would be recommended, particularly if you are financing a high percentage. From this calculation and your deposit, you can work out what you can afford,

+ Ask her to start looking for a place within your range of affordability. Tell her that you and she should agree that you will insist upon a minimum discount to the asking price, like 10-15%, and that may mean a long and careful search.

+ Try and get her to agree that you will search, and not buy, for a minimum period of 3-4 months or whatever, so you can get a good sense of the market within that time. Ask her to stay alert fro signs of a price slide, while you are searching.

WITH LUCK, the fact that you are both "pursuing her dream" will get her mind on off the idea of divorce, and to the property search. She should learn that you will be happiest as a couple, if she can wait until that is your dream too, or at least it can be fit in with your own dream of maintaining some financial prudence in your lives.

Once you work out an understanding, take her away on holiday, and tell you how much you like being with her, and isnt it nice that you can still afford holidays.

(The women who post here: PLEASE comment on this strategy. Would it work if you were the wife?)

After 17 years of marriage, a husband (or wife) shouldn't need a "strategy." They should simply be talking openly about all issues and coming to an agreement (including, if required, some kind of mutally agreed upon compromise) about what makes the best sense for the family.

The wife here seems to be acting extremely irrationally. I can't imagine any woman (well, any woman I know) telling her husband that she's going divorce him unless they buy a home. She seems very shallow.

I guess there's all sorts of marriages out there.

[The Masked Tulip]

It’s a sad old world; I was happily married 9 months ago.

About 3 months ago my wife started being ‘off’ with me and it’s deteriorated since.

She would not tell me what ‘was was up’ – But its not another Man!

She just announced today she wants a divorce.

Why? –

Because all her friends and family ‘and mine apparently!’ have been telling her we are idiots for renting and that we are crazy and are throwing money away. (£750 per month for 4 bed detached in nice new area, )

I said to her, we have made more money this year than we would be staying in our old home (See below) –

She just said its not about money, she does not feel that it is a home to her, she hates it and wants a house that we own! – She cannot stand the constant hassle she gets from friends and her clients at the Beauty salon she owns and runs.

So the threat is, we buy in 2006 (In fact she has already seen the house she wants!) or it’s the end of our 17 year marriage!

My answer: I tried to say: We are so lucky, many of our friends are up to their necks in debt (As we were 9 months ago) and we have no worries and a great life (2 holidays aboard, Sky TV! ‘ full package!’ – every comfort you could wish for and more!) Also how many people look at us in envy the fact that we got £80K for just living in a house for 5 years!

Keep up to date with this thread for daily updates on our situation (Should be better than Corry!)

In order to make the remainder easy to read I will list bullet points of my life story

• Married with 2 fantastic kids 16 and 10

• Sold our last house March 05 and made £80K Profit (in 5 years)

• Moving into rented house (STR)

• Paid off debts / loans etc etc – now completely debt free (Can sleep at night!)

• Invested the remainder and showing 20% returns since then.

• My plans were to keep reading Dr. Bubs posts and ‘keep out’ of the coming storm whilst protecting my family from its wake!

I am not asking for advice as I will have to make some important decisions based on human emotions – this is the dam problem with this Housing situation, its screwing up lives! – There are more important things to worry about in life!

Happy new year to all – Hope it had a better start than mine!

No, you're not the first. I was not married re a wedding and a contract but my partner of 3/4 years simply became miserable and it got to the stage that I walked out on her, in June 2004, as I could see where things were going... We had previously broken up for 6 months, got back together for a year and I could see the signs the second time around.

She used to spend her day watching house make-over programmes and kept having all her friends - oddly, all who are divorced or in failing marriages (Now, that is a lesson for all you young men out there. Look at the friends and you will see the woman you are dating.) - pressure her about why we were not spending to buy a 500K house, why we did not have the big expensive cars, hols, etc, etc.

She has since remortgaged 70K to modernise her house fully, has put her 18 year old son's name on the mortgage - I assume she had to do this in order to get the cash from the bank - and has shacked up with a man who has his own 'milk business' and who is selling his house, which he had bought with his partner of 5 years, and who is building a house on his dairy on the Gower so that he can "have no mortgage".

All my friends are taking bets on how long it will last and what a financial mess she has gotten herself into if Mr. Milkman does not work out.

At first, I admit, it cut me up pretty bad but, with each day that passes, I regret spending nearly 4 years of my life with a woman who was, as so many people have since commentated, a fantasist, a manipulator and just plain nasty. Time passes. You will soon open your eyes and see that there are plenty of really nice women out there, you will start meeting them, chatting with them and then wonder why on earth you spent so long with someone who wasn't good enough for you.

[ʎqɐqɹǝʞɐɥs]

I find this really hard to believe. Are you serious? If so, it seems a bit crazy - you have a roof over your heads, and what is going to leave you for - is she going to buy a property on her own?

I suspect it is another man with an enormous house, maybe even a TT parked in the drive. Why else would she threaten to divorce on grounds of renting only to just end up renting by herself as I doubt she could buy much with 40k. This all reminds me off the BBC comedy 'Nighty Night'. Did she not runa beauty saloon and was forever chasing a man with more money and prestige?

[Time to raise the rents.]

What our friend hasn't realised, but his wife has instinctively realised, is that he is now paying much more than he was for his accomodation. Here is my basic calcs:

As an owner:

400 old mortgage payment

240 old lost opportunity to earn interest on his equity (80k which he has banked after the sale) at 4.5% minus tax

- 1000 guestimated CG per month, cyclical, but reliable over years.

200 maint & ins

-------

- 160 total basic housing cost (free, he gets 160 pm for it )

As a renter:

750 rent

-240 interest received on 80k after receiving 4.5% interest and paying tax

1000 CG being earned by other owners that he'll have to raise later to buy back the property

0 Maint

---------

1,510 total housing cost.

Yeah, I can see now, renting is SO MUCH cheaper.......