jonb2 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, crouch said: It's a question of what you think the odds are. We've been drifting right for some time now so things may just continue in this way. I also believe the economy is not in a good place and that prosperity is declining - nothing to do with Brexit. This tends to sharpen things up in itself and nudge things rightwards. I don't know; it could go either way. in the case of libertarianism I think most people would recoil at it and just wouldn't want it. More right wing drift? Certainly a possibility particularly as we may have to restructure the economy to make it more dynamic. I am expecting a Viktor Orban persona type after Brexit. The right wing have too much momentum, are too strong and a vote for Brexit is a vote for them. Nobody in the Brexit camp has any really vision for the country. Not one. To think otherwise is delusional. Enjoy your rotting cabbage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 43 minutes ago, jonb2 said: I am expecting a Viktor Orban persona type after Brexit. The right wing have too much momentum, are too strong and a vote for Brexit is a vote for them. Nobody in the Brexit camp has any really vision for the country. Not one. To think otherwise is delusional. Enjoy your rotting cabbage. Who in Remain has a vision for the country? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 45 minutes ago, jonb2 said: I am expecting a Viktor Orban persona type after Brexit. The right wing have too much momentum, are too strong and a vote for Brexit is a vote for them. Nobody in the Brexit camp has any really vision for the country. Not one. To think otherwise is delusional. Enjoy your rotting cabbage. You may be right. However, I think we're due a recession and a financial crash; a recession is normal business cycle and we haven't had one for ten years. But we'll also get a financial crash; IMV this is also inevitable. What will this mean? Well it could lay bare what your right wing policies have produced: an unequal, debt ridden spiv economy that doesn't serve the populace; an economy based on speculation and the spending of borrowed money and little else. Is it likely that we'll double down on what's brought us to this pretty pass or might it herald changes that take us in a more sustainable direction? I just don't know; it could go either way. I have to agree with you that the momentum is rightwards and there is no sensible social democratic counterweight; Corbyn is useless but who isn't in Labour circles? They're all a bunch of chancers and careerists and nothing more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Who in Remain has a vision for the country? Surely if you are a remainer you can only go for Libdems, greens or changeUK. Of which only Libdems look like they have a serious chance. Labour is ambiguous on its intentions so I don't see how any commited remainer could vote for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Who in Remain has a vision for the country? The 100% Remain vision is not to dismantle and bankrupt the country. It's a laudable one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Who in Remain has a vision for the country? The illusion is that we have a very risky Leave and a totally safe Remain. But it's just that: an illusion. The EZ is a huge ticking time bomb which will either explode with dire consequences for all - including the UK - or the EU moves decisively towards a federal structure to put the necessary infrastructure for the Euro to survive. If it's the second - IMV the minority possibility - then the EU, being a centripetal organisation will move towards a federal structure. How many Remainers want to be a part of a US of E? If it's the first it could herald the end of the EU itself. If the Euro does really go sour the EU will throw everything at it to keep it alive - anything- just anything and everything because it's survival is an existential matter for the EU. It will not just collapse overnight. In the next few years it's not a question of being in the maelstrom or out; it's a question of which maelstrom you want to be in. I opt for the collateral damage option - out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, crouch said: You may be right. However, I think we're due a recession and a financial crash; a recession is normal business cycle and we haven't had one for ten years. But we'll also get a financial crash; IMV this is also inevitable. What will this mean? Well it could lay bare what your right wing policies have produced: an unequal, debt ridden spiv economy that doesn't serve the populace; an economy based on speculation and the spending of borrowed money and little else. Is it likely that we'll double down on what's brought us to this pretty pass or might it herald changes that take us in a more sustainable direction? I just don't know; it could go either way. I have to agree with you that the momentum is rightwards and there is no sensible social democratic counterweight; Corbyn is useless but who isn't in Labour circles? They're all a bunch of chancers and careerists and nothing more. I agree with you on the mega-recession. But it will be made much worse by Brexit. Corbyn is useless and suffers from the blindness and deafness of all our great leaders. They are so out of touch and there seems no way to change this without a violent reaction. Poverty causes even more fear and a desperate population looking for easy answers. A beautiful Petri-dish for the growing of the Fascist virus. Hopelessness is always a perfect breeding ground for blaming others. We have had negligent leaders for 50 years. I don't think we have seen what's lurking in the shadows yet. The grand plan. But it's there and will undo everything this country has achieved very fast - and with the help of a lot of its people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 16 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: Surely if you are a remainer you can only go for Libdems, greens or changeUK. Of which only Libdems look like they have a serious chance. Labour is ambiguous on its intentions so I don't see how any commited remainer could vote for them. The Remain representation is hopeless. It's just Dandelion seeds in the wind. Pathetic - like the rest of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, crouch said: The illusion is that we have a very risky Leave and a totally safe Remain. But it's just that: an illusion. The EZ is a huge ticking time bomb which will either explode with dire consequences for all - including the UK - or the EU moves decisively towards a federal structure to put the necessary infrastructure for the Euro to survive. If it's the second - IMV the minority possibility - then the EU, being a centripetal organisation will move towards a federal structure. How many Remainers want to be a part of a US of E? If it's the first it could herald the end of the EU itself. If the Euro does really go sour the EU will throw everything at it to keep it alive - anything- just anything and everything because it's survival is an existential matter for the EU. It will not just collapse overnight. In the next few years it's not a question of being in the maelstrom or out; it's a question of which maelstrom you want to be in. I opt for the collateral damage option - out. Regrettably, the engine of Britain runs on banking and financial services. If you think we can isolate ourselves from any collapse in Europe - you are mistaken. In fact, and because of our Brexit non-allegiance with Europe, it's more likely we will get dumped on as the most convenient outsider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, jonb2 said: I agree with you on the mega-recession. But it will be made much worse by Brexit. Corbyn is useless and suffers from the blindness and deafness of all our great leaders. They are so out of touch and there seems no way to change this without a violent reaction. I admit Brexit won't help but what concerns me more is the collateral damage from the EZ. We will not be able to insulate ourselves from that. I would much prefer a growing and prosperous EU as a backdrop for Brexit but I don't think we'll get that. 6 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Poverty causes even more fear and a desperate population looking for easy answers. A beautiful Petri-dish for the growing of the Fascist virus. Hopelessness is always a perfect breeding ground for blaming others. What will cause more problems is the dashing of expectations. People expect a growing economy with more "stuff" but when many realise that is just an illusion they will not be best pleased (all those BTL landlords patting themselves on the back for being brilliant businessmen). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: Regrettably, the engine of Britain runs on banking and financial services. If you think we can isolate ourselves from any collapse in Europe - you are mistaken. In fact, and because of our Brexit non-allegiance with Europe, it's more likely we will get dumped on as the most convenient outsider. I agree with this - see my later post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 40 minutes ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: Surely if you are a remainer you can only go for Libdems, greens or changeUK. Of which only Libdems look like they have a serious chance. Labour is ambiguous on its intentions so I don't see how any commited remainer could vote for them. What is the LibDem / green / change vision? 34 minutes ago, jonb2 said: The 100% Remain vision is not to dismantle and bankrupt the country. It's a laudable one. So the vision is the status quo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 36 minutes ago, crouch said: The illusion is that we have a very risky Leave and a totally safe Remain. But it's just that: an illusion. The EZ is a huge ticking time bomb which will either explode with dire consequences for all - including the UK - or the EU moves decisively towards a federal structure to put the necessary infrastructure for the Euro to survive. If it's the second - IMV the minority possibility - then the EU, being a centripetal organisation will move towards a federal structure. How many Remainers want to be a part of a US of E? If it's the first it could herald the end of the EU itself. If the Euro does really go sour the EU will throw everything at it to keep it alive - anything- just anything and everything because it's survival is an existential matter for the EU. It will not just collapse overnight. In the next few years it's not a question of being in the maelstrom or out; it's a question of which maelstrom you want to be in. I opt for the collateral damage option - out. We would certainly have more agility. There’s a reason the big dinosaurs died out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Who in Remain has a vision for the country? I do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: We would certainly have more agility. There’s a reason the big dinosaurs died out. The idea that a democratic country of 66 million could be some kind of agile lone wolf is preposterous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 51 minutes ago, crouch said: The illusion is that we have a very risky Leave and a totally safe Remain. But it's just that: an illusion. The EZ is a huge ticking time bomb which will either explode with dire consequences for all - including the UK - or the EU moves decisively towards a federal structure to put the necessary infrastructure for the Euro to survive. If it's the second - IMV the minority possibility - then the EU, being a centripetal organisation will move towards a federal structure. How many Remainers want to be a part of a US of E? If it's the first it could herald the end of the EU itself. If the Euro does really go sour the EU will throw everything at it to keep it alive - anything- just anything and everything because it's survival is an existential matter for the EU. It will not just collapse overnight. In the next few years it's not a question of being in the maelstrom or out; it's a question of which maelstrom you want to be in. I opt for the collateral damage option - out. Why do you continue to pronounce confidently on the Euro when you've admitted you don't even possess basic knowledge about who is in it? The evidence is that economic convergence is happening across the EU with the new members growing faster and catching up. https://www.ft.com/content/23cf4eec-345d-11e9-bd3a-8b2a211d90d5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: I do. Are you a Politician? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 14 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: We would certainly have more agility. There’s a reason the big dinosaurs died out. Agility needs muscles that work, not the myopathy we have here at the top. Meanwhile once you have your right wing Brexit government in place, please point me to an example of when the right wing has done anything but for themselves and their mates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, GrizzlyDave said: Are you a Politician? Would you vote for me? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: The idea that a democratic country of 66 million could be some kind of agile lone wolf is preposterous. Yeah, how on earth does Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Switzerland, Norway etc manage on their own...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Would you vote for me? Maybe. Are you a politician? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 12 minutes ago, jonb2 said: I agree with you on the mega-recession. But it will be made much worse by Brexit. Corbyn is useless and suffers from the blindness and deafness of all our great leaders. They are so out of touch and there seems no way to change this without a violent reaction. Poverty causes even more fear and a desperate population looking for easy answers. A beautiful Petri-dish for the growing of the Fascist virus. Hopelessness is always a perfect breeding ground for blaming others. We have had negligent leaders for 50 years. I don't think we have seen what's lurking in the shadows yet. The grand plan. But it's there and will undo everything this country has achieved very fast - and with the help of a lot of its people. Poppycock. It's not the Labour vote that's collapsed. There's been no great stampede toward CHUK, nor in my opinion is there likely to be one. Corbyn's done a magnificent job in casting off the vile legacy of Blair and Brown and making the party electable again. He alone it seems has attempted to find common ground between Leave and Remain. No, the failure's entirely on the other side. Farage's ability to manipulate public opinion is a reflection of the profound unseriousness of the Right and its ideological fixations. The Tory boys have spent ten years and a trillion pounds re-leveraging the private sector and pretending that the events of 2008 didn't happen; they're still cheering blindly for the Thatcher ffs! No greater monument to the folly of neoliberalism is it possible to imagine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Agility needs muscles that work, not the myopathy we have here at the top. Meanwhile once you have your right wing Brexit government in place, please point me to an example of when the right wing has done anything but for themselves and their mates. Where do you think we are in this cycle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
micawber Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Meanwhile once you have your right wing Brexit government in place, please point me to an example of when the right wing has done anything but for themselves and their mates. Hardly an exclusively right-wing trait? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 (edited) 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: Where do you think we are in this cycle? Where would you place someone like Hitler on that cycle? Edited May 13, 2019 by thecrashingisles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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