jonb2 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 9 minutes ago, Confounded said: You are not facing up to the fact the country voted for a change to the status quo. We will need to restructure the economy and build from the ground up, otherwise this whole endevour will not be worth the disruption caused already. It is an opertunity for a new direction but no doubt your view of the opertunities freedom from the EU presents will be decidedly pessimistic. Why do we have to leave the EU to do that? Who is going to do it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Hun Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/01/28/denmark-builds-43-mile-fence-germany-keep-wild-boar/ Denmark began constructing a 43-mile fence along its border with Germany on Monday — but the new barrier is not the latest bulwark in Fortress Europe’s defences against migrants. The metal fence, which will be only five feet high, is intended to keep out wild boar. Why do you post this sort of thing, African swine fever has nothing to do with Brexit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 42 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: If you have 25 minutes spare, it's worth watching this from the televised debate a few days before the referendum. Heath says very clearly that its primary purpose is political. If you don’t have the stamina for the full video here’s the best bit: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said: Food for thought. — Talking of food I might grab a veggie disc for tea... https://amp.theguardian.com/food/2019/apr/04/eu-to-ban-non-meat-product-labels-veggie-burgers-and-vegan-steaks Lol - people won't know what their getting with a 'veggie' burger !? If they can't read why worry about the label ? Tbh I've had meat burgers where I'm not sure what meat content is supposed to be ! Just to put it all in perspective, just read an article on 'Fox Brain' which neatly parallels the increasing manufactured intolerance over here .... https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/12/fox-news-brain-meet-the-families-torn-apart-by-toxic-cable-news Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 minutes ago, Peter Hun said: All no-deal planning has been cancelled (confirmed by CoVI's drinking buddies). Only £1.4bn was wasted. £4 billion. https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/whitehall-told-to-halt-plans-for-no-deal-brexit-1-5992636 Let's fund our NHS instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 hours ago, pig said: Orwell is quotable on good/bad patriotism or patriotism vs nationalism. It is Nationalists who want everybody to be the same, they do not tolerate any other Britain than a featureless homogenous mass and justify this by demonising the ‘Other’. An exciting rich, diverse Britain is their nightmare. Some of these idiots demand ‘repatriation’ of British people they perceive to be different. I really don’t think you’ve properly thought through your preference for incompatible alienated mono-cultures. Not least because they require authoritarian structures and narrow-minded mentalities to enforce/limit individual freedom. Nationalism is simply identification with one's own nation and support for its interests. To say that nationalists want everyone to be the same is nonsense, as is the assertion of demonising "the other". That this has happened to some at times in history in some countries is not to condemn it in principle regardless of circumstance. To want to leave the EU and regain soverignty is to have a certain type of political/legal structure and to defer to no outside authority. Why should this idea of nationalism and a "rich, diverse Britain" be mutually exclusive? It isn't. British history is internationalist and will continue to be so. Envisaging a situation where we'll pull up the drawbridge and spend our time singing patriotic songs and hating foreigners is ludicrous . A trading nation we are and this will continue and to suggest otherwise is flying in the face of the most obvious facts. One of the main cases made for Brexit is that it will allow us to trade more with ROW. This hardly sits with a xenophobic culture. This is a dystopian view which bears no relation to history or interests and which is a absurd distortion of the case for Brexit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, jonb2 said: £4 billion. https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/whitehall-told-to-halt-plans-for-no-deal-brexit-1-5992636 Let's fund our NHS instead. Does that include Lynton Crosby's 'no deal' dark ads ? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47800007 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 13 minutes ago, Peter Hun said: All no-deal planning has been cancelled (confirmed by CoVI's drinking buddies). Only £1.4bn was wasted. I can’t see much changing over the six months, especially as parliament think that a customs union is the answer to everything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 24 minutes ago, zugzwang said: Whenever I put the word Anunziata into my kindle it changes it to Sandinista. How do you even pronounce that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 11 minutes ago, Peter Hun said: Why do you post this sort of thing, African swine fever has nothing to do with Brexit Borders become hard and soft like the tide flowing in and out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, pig said: Does that include Lynton Crosby's 'no deal' dark ads ? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-47800007 This sort of stuff is the biggest threat to what little democracy we think we have left. When you connect the dots to the climate change forum of VI billionaires it becomes truly dystopian. While we have politicians that still think a PC is Jack Warner on a Saturday night and ask their aids to handle the pesky thing known as email. https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/08/amber-rudds-been-saying-more-stupid-things-about-encryption/ Funny how many SF dystopia depictions include mind control as a central theme ain't it Pig? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, crouch said: Nationalism is simply identification with one's own nation and support for its interests. To say that nationalists want everyone to be the same is nonsense, as is the assertion of demonising "the other". That this has happened to some at times in history in some countries is not to condemn it in principle regardless of circumstance. To want to leave the EU and regain soverignty is to have a certain type of political/legal structure and to defer to no outside authority. Why should this idea of nationalism and a "rich, diverse Britain" be mutually exclusive? It isn't. British history is internationalist and will continue to be so. Envisaging a situation where we'll pull up the drawbridge and spend our time singing patriotic songs and hating foreigners is ludicrous . A trading nation we are and this will continue and to suggest otherwise is flying in the face of the most obvious facts. One of the main cases made for Brexit is that it will allow us to trade more with ROW. This hardly sits with a xenophobic culture. This is a dystopian view which bears no relation to history or interests and which is a absurd distortion of the case for Brexit. It certainly is for the fecktards I'm referring to ! You have to be a bit cautious here - there are words and there are meanings and the connection can be arbitrary but the concepts are of value. Orwells analysis is 'useful': Quote By “nationalism” I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of millions of people can be confidently labelled “good” or “bad.” But secondly—and this is much more important—I mean the habit of identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its interests. https://lithub.com/what-george-orwell-wrote-about-the-dangers-of-nationalism/ ....and just found the full essay found here: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/ He goes on to say: Quote Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two different and even opposing ideas are involved. By ‘patriotism’ I mean devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseparable from the desire for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which he has chosen to sink his own individuality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 17 minutes ago, pig said: Lol - people won't know what their getting with a 'veggie' burger !? If they can't read why worry about the label ? Tbh I've had meat burgers where I'm not sure what meat content is supposed to be ! Just to put it all in perspective, just read an article on 'Fox Brain' which neatly parallels the increasing manufactured intolerance over here .... https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/apr/12/fox-news-brain-meet-the-families-torn-apart-by-toxic-cable-news You brush this off, but you do so at your peril. The thought police will arrest you if you want a burger. It’s veggie disc. Mmmm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 18 minutes ago, crouch said: Nationalism is simply identification with one's own nation and support for its interests. To say that nationalists want everyone to be the same is nonsense, as is the assertion of demonising "the other". That this has happened to some at times in history in some countries is not to condemn it in principle regardless of circumstance. To want to leave the EU and regain soverignty is to have a certain type of political/legal structure and to defer to no outside authority. If you see England as your nation, doesn't Brexit show the extent to which being in the UK means England has to defer to the outside authority of people like Arlene Foster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 2 minutes ago, jonb2 said: This sort of stuff is the biggest threat to what little democracy we think we have left. When you connect the dots to the climate change forum of VI billionaires it becomes truly dystopian. While we have politicians that still think a PC is Jack Warner on a Saturday night and ask their aids to handle the pesky thing known as email. https://www.gizmodo.co.uk/2017/08/amber-rudds-been-saying-more-stupid-things-about-encryption/ Funny how many SF dystopia depictions include mind control as a central theme ain't it Pig? Definitely ! - I used to think it was like an inoculation rather than a prophecy... Has been a bit surreal hearing brextremists insisting everybody now wants no deal while watching these ads pumped out ! But look on the bright side - if reporting on dark ads speeds up there'll be some sport telling the brainbooked what they're going to think before they know themselves... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 10 minutes ago, pig said: It certainly is for the fecktards I'm referring to ! You have to be a bit cautious here - there are words and there are meanings and the connection can be arbitrary but the concepts are of value. Orwells analysis is 'useful': https://lithub.com/what-george-orwell-wrote-about-the-dangers-of-nationalism/ ....and just found the full essay found here: https://www.orwellfoundation.com/the-orwell-foundation/orwell/essays-and-other-works/notes-on-nationalism/ He goes on to say: When I think of ‘Patriots’ I think of the United States of America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_(American_Revolution) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spindler Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: If you see England as your nation, doesn't Brexit show the extent to which being in the UK means England has to defer to the outside authority of people like Arlene Foster? I was in a bar in Miami and my English accent got the usual attention.....it has occurred to me I and others may be the last of our kind....Jim Rogers of Quantum fund fame has that rich southern accent his brother much younger has what he terms a tv dinner(don;t know why) uniform accent which doesnt belie his origins....times change people change....with the huge shifts in demographics in the UK am i one of the last of my kind ?...easily recognisable stereotypical well spoken Englishman.....i think it may be so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 minute ago, pig said: It certainly is for the fecktards I'm referring to ! Maybe but I doubt they are the majority. As to Orwell his is one particular view, widely criticised. An example of such criticism is here: https://www.eurozine.com/george-orwell-the-anatomy-of-fanaticism-and-hatred/ In fact his views have been very much criticised and really don't form a reference point for any discussion on this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 12 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Why do we have to leave the EU to do that? Who is going to do it? And how will they get paid, in chocolate buttons? The UK has no savings; no sovereign wealth fund; no stock of natural resources left unplundered. The extraordinary blessing of North Sea oil and gas has been looted and spent, and still the private sector is drowning in mortgage debt like 2008. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 Just now, Spindler said: I was in a bar in Miami and my English accent got the usual attention.....it has occurred to me I and others may be the last of our kind....Jim Rogers of Quantum fund fame has that rich southern accent his brother much younger has what he terms a tv dinner(don;t know why) uniform accent which doesnt belie his origins....times change people change....with the huge shifts in demographics in the UK am i one of the last of my kind ?...easily recognisable stereotypical well spoken Englishman.....i think it may be so... No, I don't think you are, but it's interesting that you jumped to that example. Is it the feeling of England becoming a tiny part of a globalised English-speaking world that gives us the sense of losing our identity, more so than being part of Europe (as we always have been)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: If you see England as your nation, doesn't Brexit show the extent to which being in the UK means England has to defer to the outside authority of people like Arlene Foster? A state defers to an authority outside itself. That other would normally be another state. Arlene Foster is a citizen of the UK so therefore is not outside the UK. England is not a state. Are you having a joke? Edited April 12, 2019 by crouch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 27 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: How do you even pronounce that? Nancy. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1391932/Annunziata-Tory-refused-called-Nancy-Mogg-ruled-MP.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 minute ago, crouch said: A state defers to an authority outside itself. That other would normally be another state. Arlene Foster is a citizen of the UK so therefore is not outside the UK. Are you having a joke? Why should an English person regard Arlene Foster's interests as more important than Leo Varadkar's? When did England ever get asked if it wanted to be part of the same state as Northern Ireland? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: Why should an English person regard Arlene Foster's interests as more important than Leo Varadkar's? When did England ever get asked if it wanted to be part of the same state as Northern Ireland? Are you talking about individuals or states? Northern Ireland is part of the UK and their interests are subsumed under the UK's. Ireland's are not; they are an independent state. I'm sure you're making a point here; it's just I've no idea what it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 12, 2019 Share Posted April 12, 2019 4 hours ago, Peter Hun said: Lets start with Inland customs posts. I'm not going to read it all though, couldn't give a crap about Brexit fantasy's. Why do you & CoVI love greengrocers' apostrophes so much? Perhaps you'd like to tell the Swiss that their inland customs posts couldn't possibly exist? https://www.englishforum.ch/transportation-driving/150141-how-privately-import-car-eu-ch-4.html Quote Inland customs ASAP or to the border crossing that can produce the paperwork, (13.20A) is the magic form. This gives you the stamm number you need for CH insurance. Expect to pay more than the locals as you're a dirty foreigner.Zurich has inland customs if you're moving there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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