Guest Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 22 hours ago, dugsbody said: Fantastic insight. ? Uncontrolled immigration looked to be a/the major factor in Brexit, but desire for change was the only other that rivalled it. If the Conservative party brings us a hard Brexit, one way of offsetting their works may be declaring the UK an island free port (NI border as ever difficult). No taxes on any imports, apart from a 50% import tax on finished cars. Leverage our trade deficit - use the income to spin off (with gubbermint investment freed from EU rules) to revitalise the UK car industry - not as feeble assemblers of Japanese cars to dodge import taxes (which has now gone anyway), but as inventors as the UK was back in the days we competed with the Germans. Tesla was, at the start, just a Lotus Elise with batteries. The simplicity of EVs makes it possible to create new British electric hypercars. Colin Chapman: https://www.classicdriver.com/en/article/genius-colin-chapman-simplify-then-add-lightness” Quote The Genius of Colin Chapman: "Simplify, then add lightness” McLaren is one example. The UK F1 infrastructure means that we have the engineers - hopefully into the future. It's just tragic that we've sold every one of our great car names to the Hermans. The best solution can only be to create new names, new manufacturers, new businesses. 50% tariffs on car imports - 0% on everything else. Edited February 22, 2019 by Guest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, pig said: No - its just a bit of a Leaver thing this. Or certain type of Leaver at any rate. Get a life FFS. And what type of leaver would that be? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 hour ago, pig said: That last one went weirdly under the radar but tbf a lot going on atm Was going to post it but hadn't gotten round to looking into it... I think it's disgusting nothing has been done about the corruption. Russian, Arab and far right American money and influence. Over the pond, they have Mueller. Over here - nothing. Morally bankrupt leadership. Just lies and falsehoods. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 6 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said: And what type of leaver would that be? The kind of leaver that gets worked up over nationality I guess ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 14 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Dave, not sure what to make of this? Can you do better? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/much-to-fear-from-post-brexit-trade-deals-with-isds-mechanisms I think these are poisonous. ISDS was rejected by the EU in the TTIP treaty, quite rightly in my view, and agreement fell because of it. I sincerely hope that we do not accept this if we look at TTIP. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, crouch said: I think these are poisonous. ISDS was rejected by the EU in the TTIP treaty, quite rightly in my view, and agreement fell because of it. I sincerely hope that we do not accept this if we look at TTIP. In this, I completely agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 18 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said: And what type of leaver would that be? I will give you a hint. He was talking about you. Have a second guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, pig said: The kind of leaver that gets worked up over nationality I guess ? Perhaps the type of leaver who thinks that people who do not necessarily have the best interest of this country at heart & do not live here should not be engaging in debates about other country's internal politics in a partisan way. Perhaps if it were in a disinterested manner bringing insights from other nations' experiences it would be different. But Rollover isn't that type of poster. You will doubtless say that leavers do not have the UK's best interests at heart. But if you live in a country you have a direct interest in that country, live by its laws & institutions & are thus entitled to be listened to by your fellow citizens. How would you feel about Donald Trump (or Vladimir Putin) posting on this site? I wonder how you'd get on posting on a French website expressing you opinions about French politics in pidgin French. Not very well I suspect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gigantic Purple Slug Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 26 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said: If he were a Russian bot promoting Brexit I doubt you'd be as uninterested in his motives. My main beef with him is that he posts virtually unintelligible posts a lot of the time &/or gets the wrong end of the stick. And as I said it takes immense arrogance to post on a website in a foreign country commenting on their politics. Especially when you have a poor grasp of their language. I think diversity adds to the discussion ! That said, I think you have to be careful in how you engage. if you are a foreigner debating another countries politics. I can understand that people from all over the world want to debate Brexit, and maybe come here to try to understand the choice we made. I don't have any problem with those people having an opinion on it either. And in them asking us questions we may learn more about ourselves. OTOH I think it would be easy to see how anyone coming to UK forums expressing a polarised opinion and toeing a particular line belligerently might have their motives questioned. I think it would be understandable that the presence of people like this might not always be welcomed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 37 minutes ago, jonb2 said: Dave, not sure what to make of this? Can you do better? https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/feb/20/much-to-fear-from-post-brexit-trade-deals-with-isds-mechanisms https://www.tjm.org.uk/trade-deals/bilateral-investment-treaties http://isdsblog.com/isds-qa/ I know that the UK has a BIT (bilaterial investment treaty) with India, and a hard Brexit would damage TATA's future investment into the UK. There have been murmurings that it could sue the UK govt for potential loss of earnings, as could investment foreign investors who would lose access to EU markets.. There a theoretical case study about it....Here's a start... https://academic.oup.com/icsidreview/article/33/2/380/5004350 Quote II. A BREXIT CASE STUDY The article explores how the FET standard and the idea of protecting the investor’s legitimate expectations could form the basis of a claim against the UK government for the consequences of Brexit. We will construct our analysis around the presentation of a case study. We consider the case of foreign financial firms that have established themselves in the City of London to take advantage of the UK’s much lauded position as the centre of European finance. It is argued here that the British government’s specific decision to interpret the 2016 referendum result as a mandate to leave the Single European Market heralds a fundamental change to the regulatory environment under which foreign firms had established themselves in the UK. Consequently, foreign-owned financials could seek legal redress, arguing that the changes brought about by Brexit (from the point of exit onwards) violate legitimate expectations protected by BITs that the UK has signed with their country of origin. BITs offer rights, protections and standards to investors that are in some ways superior to those enjoyed under domestic, or even EU, law. Edited February 22, 2019 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 24 minutes ago, crouch said: I think these are poisonous. ISDS was rejected by the EU in the TTIP treaty, quite rightly in my view, and agreement fell because of it. I sincerely hope that we do not accept this if we look at TTIP. How do we know what the non-EU deals are currently contracted? The depth charge might already be primed. I would not put it past the current incumbents of trade deals not to let these slip in out of desperation or incompetence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 9 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: https://www.tjm.org.uk/trade-deals/bilateral-investment-treaties http://isdsblog.com/isds-qa/ I know that the UK has a BIT (bilaterial investment treaty) with India, and a hard Brexit would damage TATA's future investment into the UK. There have been murmurings that it could sue the UK govt for potential loss of earnings, as could investment foreign investors who would lose access to EU markets.. There a theoretical case study about it....Here's a start... https://academic.oup.com/icsidreview/article/33/2/380/5004350 Thanks for explaining Dave. I have just replied to Crouch about this. We don't know what is currently beholden or what might happen in the future then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: Thanks for explaining Dave. I have just replied to Crouch about this. We don't know what is currently beholden or what might happen in the future then. The £39bn would look like pocket change.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: https://www.tjm.org.uk/trade-deals/bilateral-investment-treaties http://isdsblog.com/isds-qa/ I know that the UK has a BIT (bilaterial investment treaty) with India, and a hard Brexit would damage TATA's future investment into the UK. There have been murmurings that it could sue the UK govt for potential loss of earnings, as could investment foreign investors who would lose access to EU markets.. There a theoretical case study about it....Here's a start... https://academic.oup.com/icsidreview/article/33/2/380/5004350 BTW, is this your site DB? It seems to have the air of trade deal expertise about it. ? https://havewegota******ingtradedealyet.com/ Edited February 22, 2019 by jonb2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 4 minutes ago, jonb2 said: How do we know what the non-EU deals are currently contracted? The depth charge might already be primed. I would not put it past the current incumbents of trade deals not to let these slip in out of desperation or incompetence. Well, I admit this is a possibility and it's something I've thought about before. These things are really bad and many lawyers involved in trade believe this type of clause should be outlawed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 1 minute ago, jonb2 said: BTW, is this your site DB? It seems to have the air of trade deal expertise about it. ? https://havewegota******ingtradedealyet.com/ Perhaps I should have! Peter Ungphakorn pulls apart the UK-CH rollover... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Perhaps I should have! Peter Ungphakorn pulls apart the UK-CH rollover... Thank you. Every time the ERG opens its big mouth about no-deal, it shows how truly treacherous it is. Selfish scum. Edited February 22, 2019 by jonb2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 Just now, jonb2 said: Thank you. Every time the ERG opens it's big mouth about no-deal, it shows how truly treacherous it is. Selfish scum. It seems as if any agreed relationship, according to the ERG would almost be subject to treachery..Parliament and the population at large still haven't come to terms with the fact that any agreement outside of the EU will lead to a level of "rule taking"; until a situation arises in the longer term which develops the relationship into a proper two-tier solution.. Its a shame that EFTA has been pilloried so much, as I suspect what we get will be worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: It seems as if any agreed relationship, according to the ERG would almost be subject to treachery..Parliament and the population at large still haven't come to terms with the fact that any agreement outside of the EU will lead to a level of "rule taking"; until a situation arises in the longer term which develops the relationship into a proper two-tier solution.. Its a shame that EFTA has been pilloried so much, as I suspect what we get will be worse. I think the point is that we might have to strike unpalatable deals, perhaps more so than those that the EU can achieve, but they will be struck by our own government in the interests of the UK - & if the electorate is unhappy with those deals then the electorate can vote the government out. Thus we can develop our own strategy & decide which markets to go for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 3 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said: I think the point is that we might have to strike unpalatable deals, perhaps more so than those that the EU can achieve, but they will be struck by our own government in the interests of the UK - & if the electorate is unhappy with those deals then the electorate can vote the government out. Thus we can develop our own strategy & decide which markets to go for. I wouldn't disagree with you there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 2 hours ago, ZeroSumGame said: Guardian If only we could have a vote where everyone might have a say, e.g. as in a general election. Will o' the peepel ! Like we had in 2017? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 41 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said: Perhaps the type of leaver who thinks that people who do not necessarily have the best interest of this country at heart & do not live here should not be engaging in debates about other country's internal politics in a partisan way. Perhaps if it were in a disinterested manner bringing insights from other nations' experiences it would be different. But Rollover isn't that type of poster. You will doubtless say that leavers do not have the UK's best interests at heart. But if you live in a country you have a direct interest in that country, live by its laws & institutions & are thus entitled to be listened to by your fellow citizens. How would you feel about Donald Trump (or Vladimir Putin) posting on this site? I wonder how you'd get on posting on a French website expressing you opinions about French politics in pidgin French. Not very well I suspect. Frankly I normally think these witch hunts (this isn't exactly the first) are ludicrous. If its blatant trolling or logic is bizarrely skewed by VI then yes its of interest where people are coming from (and we've had some weird and wonderful characters on this thread!). Other than that I'd actually welcome sane views on Brexit from outside the UK. It is the fecking internet after all - If you need a virtual walled garden or TM hostile environment go live in China or the DM comments section. Btw you should see me in action on opposing team footy sites Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 30 minutes ago, pig said: Frankly I normally think these witch hunts (this isn't exactly the first) are ludicrous. If its blatant trolling or logic is bizarrely skewed by VI then yes its of interest where people are coming from (and we've had some weird and wonderful characters on this thread!). Other than that I'd actually welcome sane views on Brexit from outside the UK. It is the fecking internet after all - If you need a virtual walled garden or TM hostile environment go live in China or the DM comments section. Btw you should see me in action on opposing team footy sites Just don't try it on The Pink'un. I'll friggin' batter you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said: Just don't try it on The Pink'un. I'll friggin' batter you. Lol - you could get fined 25K for that sort of thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted February 22, 2019 Share Posted February 22, 2019 24 minutes ago, pig said: Lol - you could get fined 25K for that sort of thing. Only coz the EFL are a bunch of pansies who have to appease the aggressors. Grrrrr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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