Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[crouch]

15 minutes ago, localhero1983 said:

Reading a lot this morning about a 2nd referendum in the media, even though much of it is critical of the idea, these sort of mass stories happen for a reason.  Reading between the lines could T May be thinking about allowing the house to vote on having  a 2nd referendum and so not getting her hands dirty as she blames others.

All that does is to confirm what we already know: that we have a political class that would put the Keystone Cops to shame and are cowards to boot.

[yelims]

The irony of some here wishing an implosion upon the EU

while HMS UK has hit an iceberg and there is a fire in the boiler room is something else

[localhero1983]

1 minute ago, crouch said:

All that does is to confirm what we already know: that we have a political class that would put the Keystone Cops to shame and are cowards to boot.

House of commons always finds a way of getting what it wants and using dogma to get around the will of the people and calling it "democracy", people are sick of it. The electorate do not want HS2,  they want houses built, they never wanted mass immigration, they want a fair welfare system as a safety net and not a way of life, they never wanted mosques springing  up every 5 minutes and most of them are sick of this over PC lefty liberal narrative that points the finger at all of us in some way and belittles us.

[crouch]

11 minutes ago, localhero1983 said:

House of commons always finds a way of getting what it wants and using dogma to get around the will of the people and calling it "democracy", people are sick of it. The electorate do not want HS2,  they want houses built, they never wanted mass immigration, they want a fair welfare system as a safety net and not a way of life, they never wanted mosques springing  up every 5 minutes and most of them are sick of this over PC lefty liberal narrative that points the finger at all of us in some way and belittles us.

+1

[copydude]

19 minutes ago, localhero1983 said:

Reading a lot this morning about a 2nd referendum in the media, even though much of it is critical of the idea, these sort of mass stories happen for a reason.  Reading between the lines could T May be thinking about allowing the house to vote on having  a 2nd referendum and so not getting her hands dirty as she blames others.

I think May would be very damaged by a 2nd Referendum, certainly in advance of offering a vote on her deal. It wouldn't be any less divisive than the first, probably more so. As everyone seems to agree, it's not a simple Remain vs Brexit issue, it's also a which flavour of Brexit issue. There's absolutely no consensus in the Brexit camp, so what would it achieve?

The Government had an obligation to follow a course determined by the first referendum. If it has failed to deliver to most people's satisfaction, it has to take responsibility and own up. 

If that means rescinding the Article, because the deadline precludes negotiating anything more satisfactory, the Government must do this . . . and probably resign as well. It is an abnegation of responsibility to fudge the showdown debacle on to the electorate. 

 

[cock-eyed octopus]

23 hours ago, onlooker said:

While I agree the UK produces too many graduates, and too many in 'soft' subjects, I seem to recall that employment statistics of soft versus hard subjects are actually not so straightforward. Many who graduate in soft subjects are trainable and can attain good jobs, - but only if they can get their first foot on the ladder. If graduates come in from Europe, they will not get that foot on the ladder (see my link above).

Stats for STEM subjects have always suggested that British engineers are put off by low salaries, which must be entirely due to cheap graduate engineer immigrants undercutting them in the job market.

My experience is that the country (& most big firms) are run by fecking arts graduates who begrudge paying engineers.

 

[jonb2]

10 hours ago, GrizzlyDave said:

You have a very black and white view of the world; I think there is a bit more colour to thr story.

We lost our empire to WW2, not to the Americans. But I’m very glad for the independence of all the nations we once ruled.

It's not about black and white, it's about perception winning against truth. The USA 'special relationship' is a one-way shafting of the British.

http://members.tripod.com/american_almanac/FDRlw95.htm

We were allied with the Dutch, the French and particularly Poland as well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28979789

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_contribution_to_World_War_II

[GrizzlyDave]

According to Nadine Dorris we can only invoke/revoke A50 once.

so if we revoke A50 then we would NEVER be able to invoke A50 again...

[jonb2]

3 hours ago, macca13 said:

I’m not surprised U.K. benefits have built entire villages in Romania! There was a documentary on it! 

Also by relocating factories from richer countries to poorer, companies save on labour costs.. So Romania must have been a cheap option for business looking for slaves.. 

Who are you going to blame when the ultras have their way and turn this place into Romania after Brexit?

[jonb2]

1 hour ago, prozac said:

Are we that evil on this site?

Yes. Evil personified. Lizards, vampires and black witches. Only the participants of the forum can see what we write, we don't let anybody else see our devil scrawl on the internet. It's advanced magic that's been passed through generations of alchemists since the invasion of Italians and their Ferrari chariots in 400 BC.

The very dark web. Pitch black words ?

[simvastatin]

1 minute ago, jonb2 said:

Yes. Evil personified. Lizards, vampires and black witches. Only the participants of the forum can see what we write, we don't let anybody else see our devil scrawl on the internet. It's advanced magic that's been passed through generations of alchemists since the invasion of Italians and their Ferrari chariots in 400 BC.

The very dark web. Pitch black words ?

I have to confess I believe in the illuminati 

[simvastatin]

1 minute ago, jonb2 said:

Yes. Evil personified. Lizards, vampires and black witches. Only the participants of the forum can see what we write, we don't let anybody else see our devil scrawl on the internet. It's advanced magic that's been passed through generations of alchemists since the invasion of Italians and their Ferrari chariots in 400 BC.

The very dark web. Pitch black words ?

I have to confess I believe in the illuminati 

[copydude]

9 minutes ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

My experience is that the country (& most big firms) are run by fecking arts graduates who begrudge paying engineers.

 

It's certainly true that occupations go in fashions. Back in Victorian times, engineers were considered the fount of all invention and prosperity . . . a huge gothic 'Mechanics Institute' being one of the most prestigious buildings in many Northern towns. 

In Derby this is now a restaurant, as is is the former Railway Institute opposite Midland Station. In Bishop Auckland, it is derelict.

[jonb2]

51 minutes ago, localhero1983 said:

House of commons always finds a way of getting what it wants and using dogma to get around the will of the people and calling it "democracy", people are sick of it. The electorate do not want HS2,  they want houses built, they never wanted mass immigration, they want a fair welfare system as a safety net and not a way of life, they never wanted mosques springing  up every 5 minutes and most of them are sick of this over PC lefty liberal narrative that points the finger at all of us in some way and belittles us.

Glad that you are showing where the blame lies, being Westminster.

Every one of your points is something our government is responsible for.

Leavers should plan on having the guts to force change in the system here, rather than being satisfied with the faux distraction of the the EU being the cause of all ills.

[cock-eyed octopus]

13 hours ago, Bluestone59 said:

At the risk of ten tons of abuse falling onto my head, what is your evidence for describing most leave voters thus?  As I have only ever met one person who admits to voting leave (36 year old single man just buying his first house, nothing like what you describe) I'm not in a position to say you are wrong. Or right.

The lack of objectivity, sanity even in the debate is exactly why I refused to vote in the Referendum, even though it must be nonsense to call oneself a trading nation and then refuse to be a member of the trading block in which you are geographically situated.

I suspect the majority of leave voters were people who had adopted a can't go on like this mentality and just lashed out against the target that presented itself. Equally I'd guess that the people you describe may also well exist in quite large numbers. I don't know any.

One of the most intelligent people I've ever met is a passionate remainer, fair play to her. But when it comes to BREXIT she's completely bonkers and says ludicrous things about it.  All day long if you engage with her.  Some people really have lost it over this issue.

 

Personally I voted leave (I didn't want to join the Common Market in the first place) but can perfectly well understand why people want to remain. I feel no ill will because of their opinion.

But ... I really, really hate bullies. I hate being bullied & I hate seeing other people bullied. I can be extremely stubborn about it. And when I keep reading the hate filled, sneering, pompous, arrogant sh!te emanating from all too many remainers on here it makes me dig my heels in. All most of them want to do is vent their spleen against those who had the temerity to vote leave.

I'm only here because of posters like thehowler  & Dave Beans who are prepared to engage in some sort of debate & provide useful information., whereas others like smiley just make me more determined to go.

 

[copydude]

14 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

According to Nadine Dorris we can only invoke/revoke A50 once.

so if we revoke A50 then we would NEVER be able to invoke A50 again...

A negotiable position? An extension?

A transition period to WTO or EFTA?

The process does envisage a return to the table within 21 days if the negotiated deal doesn't fly.

[jonb2]

7 minutes ago, copydude said:

It's certainly true that occupations go in fashions. Back in Victorian times, engineers were considered the fount of all invention and prosperity . . . a huge gothic 'Mechanics Institute' being one of the most prestigious buildings in many Northern towns. 

In Derby this is now a restaurant, as is is the former Railway Institute opposite Midland Station. In Bishop Auckland, it is derelict.

Yes, well observed Dude. Something happened after WW2. Engineering, like teaching and science started to lose status, thus priority. The slow switchover from value work to the parasitic takes us to where we are now.

In China, the party is made up of mainly engineers and science educated people. Here's it's lawyers or PR people.

Says it all really.

[cock-eyed octopus]

5 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Glad that you are showing where the blame lies, being Westminster.

Every one of your points is something our government is responsible for.

Leavers should plan on having the guts to force change in the system here, rather than being satisfied with the faux distraction of the the EU being the cause of all ills.

But can't you see we have zero chance of changing the system here while being part of the EU?

 

[jonb2]

1 minute ago, ****-eyed octopus said:

But can't you see we have zero chance of changing the system here while being part of the EU?

 

Why?

[copydude]

7 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

 

Leavers should plan on having the guts to force change in the system here, rather than being satisfied with the faux distraction of the the EU being the cause of all ills.

I don't think this is necessarily the mindset of leavers . . . 'Up Yours Delors' anyone?

[winkie]

There are people who regrexit voting brexit......like there are some that want another new way.?

[jonb2]

1 minute ago, copydude said:

I don't think this is necessarily the mindset of leavers . . . 'Up Yours Delors' anyone?

Well this is the irony of Brexit isn't it?

They want the change by supporting the people that will ensure things get worse. The 'status quo' will be 'status quo 2'.

Westminster and its lobbyist parasites will continue to run the country down. Unfettered by any EU workers rights and financial regulation.

[Riedquat]

27 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Well this is the irony of Brexit isn't it?

They want the change by supporting the people that will ensure things get worse. The 'status quo' will be 'status quo 2'.

Westminster and its lobbyist parasites will continue to run the country down. Unfettered by any EU workers rights and financial regulation.

Things will get worse? How? That merely takes us back to "only money matters", when the UK's problems aren't really to do with a lack of money - we're a wealthy country now and still will be even if there's a hit to that. Assuming that more money is the solution to everything (and by implication "need more stuff") is however a good chunk of our problems.

You rightly point out the problems are mostly with Westminster. Where you're wrong is believing that the answer is maintaining the status quo and supporting the current system that lets Westminster too far off the responsibility hook by giving power to an even less accountable, less interested in the UK organisation.

[Riedquat]

1 hour ago, localhero1983 said:

House of commons always finds a way of getting what it wants and using dogma to get around the will of the people and calling it "democracy", people are sick of it. The electorate do not want HS2,  they want houses built, they never wanted mass immigration, they want a fair welfare system as a safety net and not a way of life, they never wanted mosques springing  up every 5 minutes and most of them are sick of this over PC lefty liberal narrative that points the finger at all of us in some way and belittles us.

Quite a lot of the electorate don't want more houses too, further development means yet more degredation of our surroundings and thus quality of life (the ones who do are mostly those justly annoyed at being left out but end up sounding as selfish as anyone else). The only way to keep everyone happy there is to work towards a situation where we don't need more houses, which ties in with the immigration point (and they're certainly fed up of being called racist because of that).

[Itssimple]

trilogues

Google it.

EU needs a radical overhaul. 

We all get annoyed when our local councils are inept. But generally we can do something about it.

Likewise with government.

But the EU takes the biscuit..trilogues.