OnionTerror Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, IMHAL said: DB. With all due respect, you are going off at a tangent. I respected your opnion on the 'best Brexit option' which I agreed with to an extent, but I am not enamoured about your response to 'why we are where we are'.... this is were you have been quite vocal of late. It's pretty obvious that you hold some (not so valid points in my opinion) on that, which for whatever reason you are wedded to.... and unwilling to debate. I didn't think that was in your character. Never mind, but noted none the less. I'm up for debate, but it seems most are wedded to think we are still an EU member, and are trying to refight the fight. We need to look at the TCA, to see how we can improve it. That's the reality of it. The days of between 2016 - 2020 (especially) are gone. We need to move on. "Remainers" need to put their energies into a re-join movement, if that's what they want to do. Edited August 30, 2021 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, IMHAL said: But it does matter DB. It matters a lot because we are not at the end of this spiral of 'the least popular option' yet. We are still sliding down and I dont know where it will end. It's also not helpful to blame remainers for 'being in this situation'...because the fact is that remain is still the most popular end state option compared to any other option. You might as well blame your prefered option ofor opposing TM's option as remain...that is just as valid an observation. If you are going to blame anything, then it is the flawed process. You are still stuck in a completely EU-centric, backwards-looking frame of thinking. There is no "Remain" now. There is only Rejoin, which means joining with no opt-outs. Do you personally advocate joining the Euro? Do you believe it would be popular? The world doesn't revolve around the EU, and neither does the UK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 6 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: You are still stuck in a completely EU-centric, backwards-looking frame of thinking. There is no "Remain" now. There is only Rejoin, which means joining with no opt-outs. Do you personally advocate joining the Euro? Do you believe it would be popular? Personally speaking, I rule no legitimate and future workable option out. I think we will have to see how Brexit turns out. If it is bad enough, then joining with no opt outs and the Euro may not be comparatively as bad. As for 'stuck in EU centric backward thinking'....purleeze don't be patronising....there is no alternative as any forward looking plan/vision is resisted like the plague. Maybe, because it doesn't exist!! 6 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: The world doesn't revolve around the EU, and neither does the UK. Trite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 7 hours ago, Dave Beans said: I'm up for debate, but it seems most are wedded to think we are still an EU member, and are trying to refight the fight. We need to look at the TCA, to see how we can improve it. That's the reality of it. The days of between 2016 - 2020 (especially) are gone. We need to move on. "Remainers" need to put their energies into a re-join movement, if that's what they want to do. I don't know where you get the idea that most are wedded to thinking we are still an EU member????? It's quite the opposite. We bl00dy well know we have left, as is pointed out by the regular and predominantly negative fall-out. The TCA and how to improve it. Hmmm? Excuse me if I leave that to the architects of our predicament. I dare say that any movement to re-join will depend greatly on the success or failure of Brexit and it's effects on the general population. If there is a real problem, politicians are opportunists and they will move in to fill that space. But, It's early days...there's still much to learn from our experiment into the unknown with no plan to boot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9936697/MAIL-SUNDAY-COMMENT-Lets-unite-EU-crush-curse-border-bureaucracy.html MAIL ON SUNDAY COMMENT: Let's unite with the EU to crush the curse of border bureaucracy and the headline of month award goes to … Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 From an op-ed piece in today's Telegraph by Roger Bootle. For context, the very fortunate Roger attended Oxford: "So here is my big idea to boost the GDP of this country: radically reduce the size of the university sector and with it the proportion of young people taking degrees. How radical? Cutting it in half would be a good start." 🙃 Brexit economists sound awfully like Taliban eh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 30 minutes ago, IMHAL said: I don't know where you get the idea that most are wedded to thinking we are still an EU member????? It's quite the opposite. We bl00dy well know we have left, as is pointed out by the regular and predominantly negative fall-out. The TCA and how to improve it. Hmmm? Excuse me if I leave that to the architects of our predicament. I dare say that any movement to re-join will depend greatly on the success or failure of Brexit and it's effects on the general population. If there is a real problem, politicians are opportunists and they will move in to fill that space. But, It's early days...there's still much to learn from our experiment into the unknown with no plan to boot. ...by the constant defending of the EU on here. As if it can do no wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 7 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: You are still stuck in a completely EU-centric, backwards-looking frame of thinking. There is no "Remain" now. There is only Rejoin, which means joining with no opt-outs. Do you personally advocate joining the Euro? Do you believe it would be popular? The world doesn't revolve around the EU, and neither does the UK. it is not true that the UK would have to join the the Euro after rejoining. The UK would be required to do this but it could delay it indefinitely. Personally I would welcome the Euro as it is much more convenient to have one currency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 6 minutes ago, slawek said: it is not true that the UK would have to join the the Euro after rejoining. The UK would be required to do this but it could delay it indefinitely. Personally I would welcome the Euro as it is much more convenient to have one currency. It is also convenient not losing 20% of your wealth as pound fell against euro, dollar etc by that amount in last couple decades Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 7 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: You are still stuck in a completely EU-centric, backwards-looking frame of thinking. There is no "Remain" now. There is only Rejoin, which means joining with no opt-outs. Do you personally advocate joining the Euro? Do you believe it would be popular? The world doesn't revolve around the EU, and neither does the UK. Absolutely, and Schengen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 18 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: ...by the constant defending of the EU on here. As if it can do no wrong... Factually incorrect, the prevailing opinion among Rejoiners is: the EU is an imperfect step in the right direction, it is much better for the UK to be part of it. Even if you were correct, there is no logical link between "constant defending the EU" and "claiming that the UK is still an EU member". To be clear I am not trying to patronise you here. There are logical explanations for constant defending the EU. It could be that Leavers' view that it is some kind of an "evil" organisation is incorrect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 5 minutes ago, slawek said: Factually incorrect, the prevailing opinion among Rejoiners is: the EU is an imperfect step in the right direction, it is much better for the UK to be part of it. Even if you were correct, there is no logical link between "constant defending the EU" and "claiming that the UK is still an EU member". To be clear I am not trying to patronise you here. There are logical explanations for constant defending the EU. It could be that Leavers' view that it is some kind of an "evil" organisation is incorrect. Pretty much any criticism is jumped on - you’re wrong / you’re xenophobic / you don’t understand and so on and so on. It’s almost as if it’s beyond reproach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 4 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Pretty much any criticism is jumped on - you’re wrong / you’re xenophobic / you don’t understand and so on and so on. It’s almost as if it’s beyond reproach. Well, I think we have reached rock bottom with this discussion. Thanks for your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, yelims said: From an op-ed piece in today's Telegraph by Roger Bootle. For context, the very fortunate Roger attended Oxford: "So here is my big idea to boost the GDP of this country: radically reduce the size of the university sector and with it the proportion of young people taking degrees. How radical? Cutting it in half would be a good start." 🙃 Brexit economists sound awfully like Taliban eh You don't need a degree to pick fruit or drive a truck...the North Koreans realised this years ago and look how well they are doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 8 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Pretty much any criticism is jumped on - you’re wrong / you’re xenophobic / you don’t understand and so on and so on. It’s almost as if it’s beyond reproach. If I am wrong or don't understand feel free to correct me. I guess this would be difficult since I am the best person to know, being a Rejoiner, what my views on the EU are. I haven't said anything which even remotely could be described as accusing you personally of xenophopia. I value your comments on international trade but I don't understand your "grudge" against the EU, which you can't logically explain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 14 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Well, I think we have reached rock bottom with this discussion. Thanks for your time. It’s true though. It’s happened to me on here a fair few times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: It’s true though. It’s happened to me on here a fair few times. And I have been accused of being a traitor, accused of being a 'furiner', told to leave the country if I don't like it and all sorts. But, I don't like to bring it up or use that as a defence of last resort. I prefer to stick to the matter at hand which is why remainers are having trouble buying into Brexit, both for historical and current reasons and why blaming remainers for our predicament is logically flawed. Edited August 31, 2021 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 51 minutes ago, slawek said: Factually incorrect, the prevailing opinion among Rejoiners is: the EU is an imperfect step in the right direction, it is much better for the UK to be part of it. Why fixate on the EU rather than truly international organisations like the UN or WTO? A fully-realised EU just means a European state, not an integrated world. Wouldn't the "right direction" from your perspective be to advocate deepening the WTO until it approximated a single market? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 hour ago, Dave Beans said: ...by the constant defending of the EU on here. As if it can do no wrong... They didn't do wrong, we did.....we created policies to encourage EU citizens to live and work here on low wages, without a got to put into the system before get something out of it..... we did not count people from anywhere in or out, we chose to send child benefits to children living in other EU countries......create the policies and expect people to take advantage of them....don't blame the people, blame the system that creates the behaviors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Why fixate on the EU rather than truly international organisations like the UN or WTO? A fully-realised EU just means a European state, not an integrated world. Wouldn't the "right direction" from your perspective be to advocate deepening the WTO until it approximated a single market? An integrated world in practice means one global state. There is no way to balance globally conflicting interests peacefully other than a global authority taking decisions reflecting the will of all people on the planet. I am not against UN/WTO but it is not possible for them to play that role at the moment, to much rivalry, arrogance, power play among the world biggest countries. Even the EU is having problems with holding together despite being more homogenous and WW2 working as a reminder what could happen when it fails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Just now, slawek said: An integrated world in practice means one global state. There is no way to balance globally conflicting interests peacefully other than a global authority taking decisions reflecting the will of all people on the planet. I am not against UN/WTO but it is not possible for them to play that role at the moment, to much rivalry, arrogance, power play among the world biggest countries. Even the EU is having problems with holding together despite being more homogenous and WW2 working as a reminder what could happen when it fails. WW2 is a total canard. You are not advocating anything that would avoid another world war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: WW2 is a total canard. You are not advocating anything that would avoid another world war. Not true. In the past the UK was divided by many tribes and later kingdoms with almost constant wars between them. Since the UK become one state, which was a long and painful process, there has been no war on its territory for hundreds of years and it is likely there will be one in the future. This process repeats itself on bigger scale now since the technology brought us much closer. There will be many ups and downs on the way but at the end there will be one global structure, assuming we will not destroy each other before that happens. As someone said "If you were able to explain to the millions of people who died fighting in wars for control of Europe that one day there'd be a peaceful confederation where people across the continent would elect MEPs to agree common rules on the mundane aspects of life I'd like to believe they would see the value in it." "The EU is great. The achievement of creating the EU after centuries of war should never be underestimated or taken for granted. We all benefit from the stability and structure that it brings to European relations." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 50 minutes ago, slawek said: Since the UK become one state, which was a long and painful process, there has been no war on its territory for hundreds of years and it is likely there will be one in the future. Shall we ask @Staffsknot to adjudicate on the veracity of that statement? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 52 minutes ago, slawek said: Not true. In the past the UK was divided by many tribes and later kingdoms with almost constant wars between them. Since the UK become one state, which was a long and painful process, there has been no war on its territory for hundreds of years and it is likely there will be one in the future. This process repeats itself on bigger scale now since the technology brought us much closer. There will be many ups and downs on the way but at the end there will be one global structure, assuming we will not destroy each other before that happens. As someone said "If you were able to explain to the millions of people who died fighting in wars for control of Europe that one day there'd be a peaceful confederation where people across the continent would elect MEPs to agree common rules on the mundane aspects of life I'd like to believe they would see the value in it." "The EU is great. The achievement of creating the EU after centuries of war should never be underestimated or taken for granted. We all benefit from the stability and structure that it brings to European relations." Not all of us some benefit from chaos including certain Brexiteer elites who even wrote a book on profiting from chaos I mean we literally have an opinion piece only few posts up from Brexiteer claiming that having too many educated people is bad for economy, I guess they earn for time when serfs knew their place Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yelims Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: Shall we ask @Staffsknot to adjudicate on the veracity of that statement? Do you think Scotland should be independent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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