Bruce Banner Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, Captain Kirk said: Yes, it makes sense if the question is different, i.e. not whether to remain or leave. If there is a second referendum, primarily to decide between a hard Brexit and May's hybrid abomination, it would make sense to add a third option to remain in the EU. Not allowing the people to change their minds in the light of knowledge gained over the past two years would be unforgivable and most certainly not democratic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca13 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 On 25/11/2018 at 10:27, pig said: Well then, let’s put a stop to all this cooperation and collaboration between countries, pull up the draw-bridge, feed ourselves on a diet of Daily Wail rather than money and watch the world burn its way toward us. ???? your right.. lets cut down all our trees to build houses for millions more people! Even though we can’t even feed ourselves! God you remain voters would kill us all for money.. We import 65% of our food, when in your wise opinion are we full? Serious question how many more million can we squeeze in? And how would we feed them if an environmental, war or currency crash was to happen? sustainability the ability to be maintained at a certain rate or level. avoidance of the depletion of natural resources in order to maintain an ecological balance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: If there is a second referendum, primarily to decide between a hard Brexit and May's hybrid abomination, it would make sense to add a third option to remain in the EU. Not allowing the people to change their minds in the light of knowledge gained over the past two years would be unforgivable and most certainly not democratic. I totally agree. Brexit has now been pinned down.... it is legitimate to ask if that is preferable to No Deal or Remain. It is a different question to that originally asked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renting til I die Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: If there is a second referendum, primarily to decide between a hard Brexit and May's hybrid abomination, it would make sense to add a third option to remain in the EU. Not allowing the people to change their minds in the light of knowledge gained over the past two years would be unforgivable and most certainly not democratic. I think most people agree that May's deal is pointless, losing rights/powers from remain and not gaining any potential freedoms from a no deal exit. It puts the UK in a straight jacket for at least the next 2 years. Any second referendum should just be between a 'no deal' or 'remain', assuming the EU would be nice enough to let us remain... Edited November 28, 2018 by renting til I die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 4 minutes ago, renting til I die said: I think most people agree that May's deal is pointless, losing rights/powers from remain and not gaining any potential freedoms from a no deal exit. It put the UK in a straight jacket for at least the next 2 years. Any second referendum should just be between a 'no deal' or 'remain', assuming the EU would be nice enough to let us remain... Whilst I agree with you about May's "pointless" deal, there are those who consider it a viable option. So, in the interest of fairness and democracy, I think it important to give the people the right to chose between the three options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 37 minutes ago, kzb said: It's painful because you know I have a point. It's painful because it is meaningless nonsense. Either it is a deliberate wind up, or your command of the topic is on a level with Del Boy's command of French. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 2 hours ago, Confusion of VIs said: May's deal is remain minus, a BRINO, anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. No deal means WTO trade terms, with dozens of side agreements to keep the lights on, planes flying, food in shops etc. We need to plan for the future and that means assessing all the information you do have and creating a view as to the most likely future i.e. forecasting and then planning for that future. So in rough terms we plan for May's deal being (6%) poorer or No Deal being (9%) poorer. It will be interesting to see peoples reaction when the figures are revealed before the meaningful vote. It will also be interesting to see if they massage the figures by banking the near 3% drop in GDP that has already occurred since the vote. You clearly did not read my post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renting til I die Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 5 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Whilst I agree with you about May's "pointless" deal, there are those who consider it a viable option. So, in the interest of fairness and democracy, I think it important to give the people the right to chose between the three options. I don't think that a referendum with 3 options could be considered 'democratic'. You basically make the current situation worst, i.e. up to 49% could be on the losing side to up to 66% of voters could be unhappy with the outcome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zugzwang Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 46 minutes ago, Fromage Frais said: This site is house price crash. Many on here think the financial crisis is not yet over. I am one of those people ergo in or out we are going to have a massive recession once inflation and higher global rates bite. If we are out we can blame it on that. If we have a second refferendum and vote remain we could also have a hum dinger as our debt come home to roost and housing market goes down. So imho all the figures are pie in the sky and in or out is no guarantee of no recession. +1 There's no zeroth order model of the economy against which you can calibrate your assumptions. Either economists are too stupid to write one down, or the economy is fundamentally lawless (more plausible). Having said that, the amount of business generated by foreign trade and investment is dwarved into insignificance by the size of the domestic economy. If the latter is pathologically enfeebled by private sector debt then the former will never revive it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, renting til I die said: I don't think that a referendum with 3 options could be considered 'democratic'. You basically make the current situation worst, i.e. up to 49% could be on the losing side to up to 66% of voters could be unhappy with the outcome. Could it not be in two parts. Part one choice between May's deal and hard Brexit. Part two between choice in part one and Remain. Or even two separate votes, a week or two apart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 Trump is mulling tariffs on car imports...auto industry Brexit woes are small fry. Ref only to this discussion... European auto stocks extended losses on Tuesday after a German magazine reported that U.S. President Donald Trump could impose tariffs on imported cars from next week. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/11/27/trump-may-impose-tariffs-on-imported-cars-from-next-week.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renting til I die Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Fromage Frais said: This site is house price crash. Many on here think the financial crisis is not yet over. I am one of those people ergo in or out we are going to have a massive recession once inflation and higher global rates bite. If we are out we can blame it on that. If we have a second refferendum and vote remain we could also have a hum dinger as our debt come home to roost and housing market goes down. So imho all the figures are pie in the sky and in or out is no guarantee of no recession. Why don't HPC add a like button already! Thank you for this post. Brexit is a side show that has completely adsorbed some people into pointless arguments. Staying in the EU will not stop the SHTF at some point! Edited November 28, 2018 by renting til I die Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renting til I die Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Could it not be in two parts. Part one choice between May's deal and hard Brexit. Part two between choice in part one and Remain. Or even two separate votes, a week or two apart. Yes, I agree and did actual think about this sometime last week, coming up with a very similar idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca13 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 18 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Whilst I agree with you about May's "pointless" deal, there are those who consider it a viable option. So, in the interest of fairness and democracy, I think it important to give the people the right to chose between the three options. Leave or leave with Brussels stich up deal.. ? what is wrong with you people.. look at the news paper.. crime is through the roof, UN poverty investigations.. Remain is a road to poverty! More people and more crime.. more third world living standards. our economy is toast! The EU is toast.. Be the first off the titanic not the last, ask Jack.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 39 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: If there is a second referendum, primarily to decide between a hard Brexit and May's hybrid abomination, it would make sense to add a third option to remain in the EU. 30 minutes ago, IMHAL said: I totally agree. Brexit has now been pinned down.... it is legitimate to ask if that is preferable to No Deal or Remain. It is a different question to that originally asked. 27 minutes ago, renting til I die said: Any second referendum should just be between a 'no deal' or 'remain', assuming the EU would be nice enough to let us remain... I think it's too late for Remain to be an option on a second referendum ballot paper. March 30th 2019 is just weeks away now, there won't be a second referendum before then. By the time a second referendum comes the UK will already have ceased to be an EU member state so the option would have to be Rejoin, not Remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, Dorkins said: I think it's too late for Remain to be an option on a second referendum ballot paper. March 30th 2019 is just weeks away now, there won't be a second referendum before then. By the time a second referendum comes the UK will already have ceased to be an EU member state so the option would have to be Rejoin, not Remain. You could be right, but it wasn't many weeks ago that various EU leaders were saying that it's not too late for the UK to change it's mind and remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 13 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Could it not be in two parts. Part one choice between May's deal and hard Brexit. Part two between choice in part one and Remain. Or even two separate votes, a week or two apart. Time to let go on remain. Wait a few years and try for rejoin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renting til I die Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dorkins said: I think it's too late for Remain to be an option on a second referendum ballot paper. March 30th 2019 is just weeks away now, there won't be a second referendum before then. By the time a second referendum comes the UK will already have ceased to be an EU member state so the option would have to be Rejoin, not Remain. I think that you may be right and I doubt Rejoin will be as good an option than Remain. The government seem to have a lot to answer for on how they have wasted the 2 years exit planning on getting a deal which leaves us with at least another 2 years of errr.. exiting planning!? Edited November 28, 2018 by renting til I die opps, correction! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 21 minutes ago, renting til I die said: I don't think that a referendum with 3 options could be considered 'democratic'. You basically make the current situation worst, i.e. up to 49% could be on the losing side to up to 66% of voters could be unhappy with the outcome. That's what single transferable vote is for. In the real adult world people don't always get their first choice but they can usually get something they can live with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macca13 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 18 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Whilst I agree with you about May's "pointless" deal, there are those who consider it a viable option. So, in the interest of fairness and democracy, I think it important to give the people the right to chose between the three options. Leave or leave with Brussels stich up deal.. ? what is wrong with you people.. look at the news paper.. crime is through the roof, UN poverty investigations.. Remain is a road to poverty! More people and more crime.. more third world living standards. our economy is toast! The EU is toast.. Be the first off the titanic not the last, ask Jack.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, renting til I die said: I think that you may be right and I doubt Rejoin will be as good an option than Remain. The government seem to have a lot to answer for on how they have wasted the 2 years exit planning on getting a deal which leaves us with at least another 2 years of errr.. exiting planning!? The past is another country. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 53 minutes ago, macca13 said: ???? your right.. lets cut down all our trees to build houses for millions more people! Even though we can’t even feed ourselves! God you remain voters would kill us all for money.. We import 65% of our food, when in your wise opinion are we full? Serious question how many more million can we squeeze in? And how would we feed them if an environmental, war or currency crash was to happen? sustainability the ability to be maintained at a certain rate or level. avoidance of the depletion of natural resources in order to maintain an ecological balance. Yes but you have to have the right politicians with some brains to at least begin to tackle climate change. Do you think Gove is your action saviour ? No, I didn't think so. Frankly, looking at the way humans are going, it's probably time to hand it on to another species anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 16 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Could it not be in two parts. Part one choice between May's deal and hard Brexit. Part two between choice in part one and Remain. Or even two separate votes, a week or two apart. Why let politicians decide the order of what comes up against what in two separate votes? This could easily influence the outcome and might encourage people to vote tactically to intentionally put the worst, least popular option through from round one knowing that in round two people would panic and vote for the other one. Single transferable vote is more democratic, every option against every option at the same time with the least popular option eliminated first and its second preferences redistributed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonb2 Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said: Even those prepared to accept lower future growths must be concerned that this overall figure hides the fact that the actual losses will be concentrated in the UK's industrial areas with London and other service orientated areas carrying on more or less unaffected. Is greater inequality just another bit of the price worth paying. I'll have a double-austerity please. No ice. Edited November 28, 2018 by jonb2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
renting til I die Posted November 28, 2018 Share Posted November 28, 2018 1 minute ago, thehowler said: The past is another country. I wish May would p*ss off to another country, for good! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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