spyguy Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 And what about the next kid she pops out and the next 10 year max lifetime claim, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nnails Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Been 20years since i was at uni. But i do no one for sure my computer buisness course was not worth paying for. It could have been completed in year not three and i dont think it help it got me a proper job. Start at bottom of office and working up did that experince was worth more than any education Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted May 26, 2016 Author Share Posted May 26, 2016 The doubling rate of the debt is quite impressive. At 5% the debt will double in around 14 years, so that £40k will double to £80k if you don't make any payments. Naturally if inflation increases and the interest rate hits 10% then this doubling will only take 7 years. Whilst I naturally assume there isn't really a plan, but what plan has the govt got to cover the write offs in around 30 years time when these highly indebted graduates hit 50 and haven't paid much off the loan? Whilst I assume this will be the govts problem at the time have they actually made any idiotic plans to cover the bad loans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewingGrass Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Been 20years since i was at uni. But i do no one for sure my computer buisness course was not worth paying for. It could have been completed in year not three and i dont think it help it got me a proper job. Start at bottom of office and working up did that experince was worth more than any education Noticed this with two courses my spawn have signed up for. 1) classed as full time at the local college that thinks it can now call itself a university due to some affiliation where 1.5 days a week is classed as a full time 'engineering' course. 2) a full time course in 'policing' charged at just short of full wack for 2 days per week plus 2 years of specialing which is basically free labour for the local plod and typically is used to cover where 2 officers need to be present with vulnerable clients thus freeing up scarce resources. Always remember one university when questioned about how many students would be accepted on the course the answer that came back was that the university was a business and all students who met the very low entrance criteria would be found a place. When someone asked what the dropout rate across the campus was after the first year the answer was 49% across all courses. Now thats what I call a business, get the fees off them, cram em in for 12 months and get rid of them before the hard work sets in and they affect the uni's grade ratings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spyguy Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Been 20years since i was at uni. But i do no one for sure my computer buisness course was not worth paying for. It could have been completed in year not three and i dont think it help it got me a proper job. Start at bottom of office and working up did that experince was worth more than any education Most dgrees are just not wirth. The majority of degrees are non-vocational - stack em high (in lectures), sell them expensive. Never worth doing non-voc degrees. There's just no demand for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
durhamborn Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Under no circumstances must the masses be allowed to accumulate capital because with it comes self determination and liberty. This^ .Everything is done to stop this.Government know fine well 25% of the population will never work.They know to pay for those they have to keep the middle 50% working forever.Debt is the way they have chosen.House prices suits this fine.However student debt makes sure the young who will buy those over priced houses have a second trap.If earnings increase to a level where they might be able to pay off the house/invest the student loan repayments strip it away. They have to make sure people cant accumulate capital like you say to stop people packing in work early. The only answer is for everyone to stop falling for it.Earn the tax allowance level and no more.Use the spare time to do things youd pay for.Cook,repair,DIY etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolhunter Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 The letter writer doesn't understand the deal he was given, and has embarassed himself by displaying that. Long story short, he'll be paying much less per month than the old style loans, never had the cash pass through his bank account as it used to, will likely never pay off the 'debt', and will see it cease to exist at around 51, by which point he'll have paid around 15k of it back. If he doesn't get a good job, he never pays any of it back before it gets written off. Admittedly, his lack of comprehension does show the horrendous state of reading comprehension & maths in schools, but it's about as far away from 'mis-selling' as a car accident is from a train ticket. Likely no connection whatever, unless you build one yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolhunter Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 Whilst I naturally assume there isn't really a plan, but what plan has the govt got to cover the write offs in around 30 years time when these highly indebted graduates hit 50 and haven't paid much off the loan? Whilst I assume this will be the govts problem at the time have they actually made any idiotic plans to cover the bad loans? There doesn't need to be a plan. Old style loans, government was out money. It loaned it to me, I used it to pay fees, I'm now nearly done paying it back. New 'loans' merely assigned a portion of the cost of uni to the student's NI number for post-education payment. Most will never be repaid (only those of the very top earners), most will simply have the attachment decoupled after 30 years, having paid in total about as much (unless thresholds of interest rates change dramatically). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted May 26, 2016 Share Posted May 26, 2016 (edited) From the OP's guardian link A spokesperson for the Department for Business, Innovation & Skills, said: “The variable interest rate for loans taken out after September 2012 has not been changed. As the OECD has recognised, our student funding system is fair and sustainable. It removes financial barriers for anyone hoping to study, and is backed by the taxpayer with outstanding debt written off after 30 years. “Graduates only pay back at 9% of on earnings above £21,000 and enjoy a considerable wage premium of £9,500 per year over non-graduates.” One suspects that's the misleading bit these days. The differential might have been true when mass higher education and student loans were first being justified but it doesn't sound true now. As usual they just make a bald claim without detailed substantiation. In any event it's likely that the overall graduate figures are being bumped up due to a few exceptional earners with higher education. If the premium is correct and bearing in mind loss of earnings while doing all the years of extra study plus in some jobs low earnings while actually learning the job/becoming fully qualified then the eventual premium would barely compensate. Edited May 26, 2016 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbitrage Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 No, the modern school system is only interested in teaching pupils to pass exams so that the school gets a good placing in the league tables and whatever other metrics that are required to get a good ofsted report. Minor irrelevances like teaching useful skills or developing the kid's talents are of no value. Absolutely correct: 100% guaranteed Schools produce exam and value-added statistics. Their role isn't to supply education. It has been that way for at least a decade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Absolutely correct: 100% guaranteed Schools produce exam and value-added statistics. Their role isn't to supply education. It has been that way for at least a decade It's as much parents fault as it is the teachers. Teachers, clergy, fitba' coach, drill sgt, employers, scout mastere, etc... everybody whose been active in a young persons development into a responsible subject (UK specific). Young people need to be challenged. With no risk / reward there's no motivation to improve... or even try in many cases... and no fear/dishonour in failure. But that doesn't speak for the 15% who excel and will be tomorrows teachers, doctors, politicians, leaders. Sources: I have teachers in the family in Scotland, England, Ireland, Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tresbon Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 University has become a game to feed the system not give you an education. We need more debt interest from a smaller number of employees to feed a larger number of retirees. The graduate tax does that by selling a dream of higher pay (for some) but taxing everyone. Its not going to work in the long term but when have government ever felt the need for long term planning? Its a 5-10 year gambit. The methodology in our system is very clear to me. 1. Anyone close to the debt fountain - government debt, corporate debt, consumer debt is paid large amounts to keep the system going 2. Lobbyists are paid from this debt interest to keep the government doing what is required by the debt lobby 3. Anyone else is given just enough to eat, and drink and perhaps have some shelter in exchange for effort. 4. The media sell a dream based on a few who make it out of this situation, through luck or because the governing bodies always need distraction whilst corporates need consumers' attention to sell goods. In short if you are not going to become an accountant. lawyer, doctor (even that is getting salary cuts), or banker you will have an extra tax to pay to go to university which will add interest upon interest and stop you buying a house or doing anything you considered as "normal" based on your parents experience. A question for the group - what is the difference between being a slave on zero wages being told where to be 5 days a week and someone with effectively a negative bank balance through debt paying it back in order to get practically nothing in return. People should watch the film - Idiocracy (its a silly film but Fox never gave it a proper release because its a bit too close to home). We manage people by doing what the corporates want, not what people need. The guilt that the elites had forcing WW2 resulted in an unprecedented programme to build and provide for the homeless, veterans and poor through social housing, the NHS and university education. This guilt has subsided and we are now back to the same game that has gone on for centuries - give the poor just enough to survive and not rebel. Keep them under control and make sure Elites keep their positions of power. Anyone who has had social mobility would have sold people out to get to join the system. Its rarely hardwork, except for new idea entrepreneurs. It was thanks to this forum I did and I'd highly recommend it. Behind the silliness it is indeed very close to home indeed..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Habeas Domus Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Any party which calls itself Democrat but will under any circumstances leave the EU, is obviously not very logical. The Lib Dems are Pro EU not anti Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 University is designed to delay / mask youth unemployment. No more no less This has been a big part of it. 1 in 2 young people with degrees, is it really necessary or a good use of those formative years. It is for most extended school that the grown-up schoolchildren pay for. Imagine UK youth unemployment if this were not the case. No, the modern school system is only interested in teaching pupils to pass exams so that the school gets a good placing in the league tables and whatever other metrics that are required to get a good ofsted report. Minor irrelevances like teaching useful skills or developing the kid's talents are of no value. What gets measured gets done. In spite of all this education we seem to be churning out young people starting out who are poorly uneducated, at least not equipped for life ahead; and need to import skills we apparently don't have. It is very odd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamnumerate Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 The Lib Dems are Pro EU not anti Sorry I meant to say will never leave the EU. The Lib Dems claim to care about animal rights and democracy. But the council of ministers over turned the European Parliament recently and decided to keep funding bull fighting - bad for both. I am sure there was a story about on the BBC but I missed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Venger Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 (edited) Not a boomer pal. Okay dopey... if we are to consider somebody going to university as a 'smart' and 'responsible' (erudite perhaps) individual with academic merit, ability to research and execute concise critical analysis... who has completed studies and earned the right to be conferred their degree.. yet they cannot fathom a basic contract, interest and principal? I will re-iterate, and elaborate. Basic education is a right. Higher education is a privilege. Folk need to man the fvck up and take responsibility for their actions. Not like this lad was swindled. He probably spent more time researching the best mobile phone contract options and what the football scores are than the student loan. http://www.slc.co.uk/students/loan-repayment.aspx https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loan https://www.khanacademy.org/economics-finance-domain/core-finance/interest-tutorial/interest-basics-tutorial/v/introduction-to-interest Got to admit, that's my main view too. If enough people refuse to sign up, then things have to change. And if you can't think critically - if not taught math in school - spend £100-£200 with an accountant to run the sums before signing up to a debt-contract. Get contracts checked/explained by commercial/corporate solicitors. I'm only relived the guy in article didn't start moaning about ability to take on the a mortgage (to pay these prices), because of the student debt. Instead it was something about not being able to save toward a pension. ..In short if you are not going to become an accountant. lawyer, doctor (even that is getting salary cuts), or banker you will have an extra tax to pay to go to university which will add interest upon interest and stop you buying a house or doing anything you considered as "normal" based on your parents experience. Probably so when everyone's an innocent for all their decisions, looking for the bailout/forgiveness. Not going to quote the hpcer who posted this, as they were looking at something altogether different, but it my general view; take ownership of your own decisions. The idea of people as objects with no ability to make choices of their own, of adults who can't be allowed to make their own decisions or take responsibility for their own actions, is dystopian in the extreme. How could a society which regarded people in this manner do anything other than move towards a system of rigorous and all-pervading control over the the populace at large in order to counteract our apparent inability to think for ourselves? When I helped someone get a new loan (6.8%,) to repay their post-grad course loan (19% but was interest free for 1 year) - they were entirely aware of the debt involved in advance. In fact, they applied to a charity and got awarded a £1K grant towards fees. It was totally in focus in their mind. And they worked part time, and all of Summer, to limit their debt. Despite all that, got to admit to a little bit of sympathy student side debt. Seems like they may have really needed to read into it all, and that there may have been some complexity. Although it just reminds me of all those claiming the guy who outbid my family for a house 2 years ago is a 'debt tricked innocent.' Edited May 27, 2016 by Venger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CunningPlan Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Heard this morning on LBC how this can pan out. 25 year old girl states that she has just bought her first house by saving really hard for the deposit - no BOMAD help. Turns out she saved all her student grants by living at home board and lodging free with her parents throughout her course. I think also worked for a year or so after graduating. Ended up with about £30k for the deposit. So we now have a new 'Student Loan HTB' scheme. In effect she has got herself a 100% mortgage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Heard this morning on LBC how this can pan out. 25 year old girl states that she has just bought her first house by saving really hard for the deposit - no BOMAD help. Turns out she saved all her student grants by living at home board and lodging free with her parents throughout her course. I think also worked for a year or so after graduating. Ended up with about £30k for the deposit. So we now have a new 'Student Loan HTB' scheme. In effect she has got herself a 100% mortgage. +1 and the bits she couldn't save went mainly towards college staff wages to help them to buy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cashinmattress Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 (edited) Heard this morning on LBC how this can pan out. 25 year old girl states that she has just bought her first house by saving really hard for the deposit - no BOMAD help. Turns out she saved all her student grants by living at home board and lodging free with her parents throughout her course. I think also worked for a year or so after graduating. Ended up with about £30k for the deposit. So we now have a new 'Student Loan HTB' scheme. In effect she has got herself a 100% mortgage. Hopefully not by committing fraud.... most grants are subject to pre-conditions, such as being on income support or benefits, some kind of income based support, having a disability, having outgoings etc... http://www.savethestudent.org/student-finance/student-grants-bursaries-scholarships.html Of course if it's done all legal like... good for her for playing the system... but I wouldn't be advertising the fact by effectively painting a huge bullseye on my back going on a radio show. Goalposts an a'. Edited May 27, 2016 by cashinmattress Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor_Blade Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 This^ .Everything is done to stop this.Government know fine well 25% of the population will never work.They know to pay for those they have to keep the middle 50% working forever.Debt is the way they have chosen.House prices suits this fine.However student debt makes sure the young who will buy those over priced houses have a second trap.If earnings increase to a level where they might be able to pay off the house/invest the student loan repayments strip it away. They have to make sure people cant accumulate capital like you say to stop people packing in work early. The only answer is for everyone to stop falling for it.Earn the tax allowance level and no more.Use the spare time to do things youd pay for.Cook,repair,DIY etc. Nail on the head, in "supporting" hard working families and aspiration - TPTB are looking after their interests rather than those of those actually doing the work. Until more people realise they're being suckered into playing a game that is stacked against them, nothing will change - when the majority of people start to realise this is when things will get interesting. As the saying in poker goes, if you don't know who the mug is - its probably you.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 (edited) Nail on the head, in "supporting" hard working families and aspiration - TPTB are looking after their interests rather than those of those actually doing the work. Until more people realise they're being suckered into playing a game that is stacked against them, nothing will change - when the majority of people start to realise this is when things will get interesting. As the saying in poker goes, if you don't know who the mug is - its probably you.... I think many if not most people realise deep down they're being suckered into playing a game that is stacked against them but not so many people realise how deliberate it all is and how hidden it is behind the fine words and glib lies. Edited May 27, 2016 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor_Blade Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 This has been a big part of it. 1 in 2 young people with degrees, is it really necessary or a good use of those formative years. It is for most extended school that the grown-up schoolchildren pay for. Imagine UK youth unemployment if this were not the case. What gets measured gets done. In spite of all this education we seem to be churning out young people starting out who are poorly uneducated, at least not equipped for life ahead; and need to import skills we apparently don't have. It is very odd. Peter Drucker was right when he said what gets measured gets managed - there are though two problems with adopting that approach: 1. Making sure you measure/manage the right things - and I would argue that the education system isn't doing this at all. 2. As the great W Edwards Deming so correctly put it many of the key variables in a system are "unknown & unknowable". Managing by visible numbers only is a sure fire recipe for disaster. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motor_Blade Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 I think many if not most people realise deep down they're being suckered into playing a game that is stacked against them but not so many people realise how deliberate it all is and how hidden it is behind the fine words and glib lies. I think that's a fair point, the more pressing concern is that most people's response to the realisation is to go into denial and/or go down the distract themselves route with possessions, alcohol/drug abuse or such like. Why do "aspirational" cars like Audi's & BMWs sell so well - is it because they are better cars or just a means for people to convince themselves all is well in the world? Likewise, the UK's drinking culture owes a lot to the fact that most people hate their jobs/lives and want to escape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richmond Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 I think one of the problems with the 'rebel against it' idea is most children are told that the only way to get a high paying job and career is to go to uni. Then there are jobs that require uni degrees and are not high paid like academic careers. Plus everyone else is going to uni, how will you compete. This may not be true, but it is how children are brought up. So what do you do? Do you not go to uni as a protest, and risk 'throwing away your life'? Or at least the life you aspire to? I would guess most people would not risk this, and then the loans company has you over a barrel. I do wonder though if these contracts would be seen as 'unfair' by a court. I mean the loans company has all the power to impose pretty much any terms they want. The student has no choice if they want to go to uni. I think this can be used to null employment contract clauses that are considered unfair and only signed because one person had to take the job and the other had all the power to impose whatever they wanted...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectrumFX Posted May 27, 2016 Share Posted May 27, 2016 Heard this morning on LBC how this can pan out. 25 year old girl states that she has just bought her first house by saving really hard for the deposit - no BOMAD help. Turns out she saved all her student grants by living at home board and lodging free with her parents throughout her course. I think also worked for a year or so after graduating. Ended up with about £30k for the deposit. So we now have a new 'Student Loan HTB' scheme. In effect she has got herself a 100% mortgage. That's just BOMAD in disguise. What's the difference between your parents paying money towards your living costs, and your parents just giving you the money. Not a lot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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