porca misèria Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 But why do we care about the banks? Why are their opinions so important in matters of politics and democracy? Take a look at a bit of history. The rise of parliament happened because they controlled the purse-strings. The monarch of the day couldn't fund essential functions like the army and navy without parliament to raise funds. Each time there was a crisis, parliament was able to hold the monarch to ransom and insist on more power for itself. Over time, parliament rose and the monarchy declined. Who controls the purse-strings today? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 ...well Ireland has more attractive corporate tax rates than everyone else which helps your theory ...but Scotland's small problem if they were to match these rates are Unions ...this was reflected recently at the oil terminal at Grangemouth and back over the years Ford in 1988 pulled out of a planned engine assembly plant in Dundee because of the Union demands even before they had started ...Salmond needs to look at these issues and solve to be successful..... That will be easy. An independent Scotland can pass an act making Trade Unions illegal and repeal all existing employment protection legislation (assuming they adopt what is currently in place).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 ......it's not simple for it to be successful ...because if it were that easy ...everyone would be doing it.... Your original post made it sound like it was. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goat Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 ...well Ireland has more attractive corporate tax rates than everyone else which helps your theory ...but Scotland's small problem if they were to match these rates are Unions ...this was reflected recently at the oil terminal at Grangemouth and back over the years Ford in 1988 pulled out of a planned engine assembly plant in Dundee because of the Union demands even before they had started ...Salmond needs to look at these issues and solve to be successful..... Salmond as the new Thatcher, somehow I can't quite see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Salmond as the new Thatcher, somehow I can't quite see it. Salmond won't be there forever, and he may not be there for long at all if he makes a mess of it. Have some confidence in Scotland's political culture. This is the country of Adam Smith after all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 http://www.scotsman.com/news/politics/top-stories/day-of-reckoning-post-yes-vote-says-jim-sillars-1-3539754 Scottish independence: FORMER SNP deputy leader Jim Sillars has claimed there will be a “day of reckoning” for major Scottish employers such as Royal Bank of Scotland and Standard Life after a Yes vote. Speaking from his campaign vehicle the “Margo Mobile”, Mr Sillars insisted that employers are “subverting Scotland’s democratic process” and vowed that oil giant BP would be nationalised in an independent Scotland. Earlier this week, a number of banks, including Lloyds Banking Group and RBS, said they would look to move their headquarters south of the border in the event of a Yes vote. Mr Sillars, who earlier this week claimed he and First Minister Alex Salmond had put their long-held personal differences behind them to campaign together for independence, also revealed that he would not retire from politics on 19 September but said he would be “staying in” if Scotland became independent. He claimed there is talk of a “boycott” of John Lewis, banks to be split up, and new law to force Ryder Cup sponsor Standard Life to explain to unions its reasons for moving outside Scotland. He said: “This referendum is about power, and when we get a Yes majority, we will use that power for a day of reckoning with BP and the banks. “The heads of these companies are rich men, in cahoots with a rich English Tory Prime Minister, to keep Scotland’s poor, poorer through lies and distortions. The power they have now to subvert our democracy will come to an end with a Yes.” He added: “BP, in an independent Scotland, will need to learn the meaning of nationalisation, in part or in whole, as it has in other countries who have not been as soft as we have forced to be. We will be the masters of the oil fields, not BP or any other of the majors.” Mr Sillars, whose wife, MSP Margo MacDonald died earlier this year, said that under an independent Scotland, Standard Life would be required by new employment laws to give two years warning of any redundancies - and reveal to the trade unions its financial reasons for relocation to any country outside of Scotland. “What kind of people do these companies think we are? They will find out,” he added. The Yes campaign described Mr Sillars, whose rift with Mr Salmond is believesd to have begun moreb than 20 years ago as a “passionate campaigner” but refused to endorse his manifesto. A spokesman for Yes Scotland said: “Jim is a passionate campaigner who is carrying on the work of his late wife Margo MacDonald, who dedicated her political life to achieving an independent Scotland and a fairer society. The current Scottish Government’s proposals for an independent Scotland are set out in great detail in the white paper - including the job-creating powers Scotland so badly needs - and that is what people are voting for. “In each and every election to an independent Parliament, parties and individuals can put forward a manifesto of their choosing and the people will decide. The role of Yes is to achieve a Yes vote, so that the people of Scotland will always get the governments we vote for - and never again Westminster-imposed Tory governments.” Opposition campaigners claimed they “would not be intimidated” by Mr Sillars’s words. “The Yes campaign’s mask slipped today as Jim Sillars revealed their message for the final week of this campaign – vote yes or else,” said Labour MP for Glasgow South West Ian Davidson. “His words are a clear threat to anyone who points out the true costs of separation to the people of Scotland. “Well I tell Jim Sillars - Scots are not the ’90 minute patriots’ he once accused us of being. Scots have backbone and we who are voting no with patriotism and pride for our country will not be intimidated by threats of vengeance. He added: “Sillars stood shoulder to shoulder with Alex Salmond this week claiming to be positive. Now we see the real face of nationalism in all its ugliness. “Scotland must unite to gain the change we need for our country and reject the yes campaign’s strategy of threats and intimidation.” BP refused to comment. So the real colours are starting to show through. No more spin, just outright race and class hatred under pinned by a resentment of the wealthy and those who are prepared to take risk to achieve results and generate wealth.Well, the glitter is really wearing off the base metal underneath.Faced with a self-admission as above, anyone who votes for these people deserves the lifetime of misery for which they are requesting.It's a while since the world has seen a political self-implosion such as this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 That will be easy. An independent Scotland can pass an act making Trade Unions illegal and repeal all existing employment protection legislation (assuming they adopt what is currently in place).. ...Gordon Wilson (SNP Dundee East) at the time blamed the London Union leaders for the break down of negotiations in '88....and therefore the lesson is ...if you are to have unions they should not be controlled from outside your own borders.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2753247/Could-licence-fee-double-Scotland-Calls-BBC-reveal-independence-plans.html The BBC are apparently putting it about that the licence fee might double in Scotland if there is independence! Hopefully no-one is taken in by their delusions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Your original post made it sound like it was. ...it was positive ....and for a new country it can't be built on negatives ...or more important... myths and lies....it's a fragile time for all....but the guarantee for democracy both sides of the border unlike now is good.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2753247/Could-licence-fee-double-Scotland-Calls-BBC-reveal-independence-plans.html The BBC are apparently putting it about that the licence fee might double in Scotland if there is independence! Hopefully no-one is taken in by their delusions. Why would a licence fee be applicable? Is it stated Sc Govt policy to continue with such a scheme? I would have thought the easy solution is Scotland keeps whatever BBC infrastructure/buildings/equipment which is in place then it can choose what it wants. An independent broadcaster funded by means yet to be devised or hive off a licence or two to the public sector.. Those living close to the border gets the both of both worlds and the loss of a couple of Million licence fees (top end estimate) probably wouldn't bother the BBC. I know the licence fee is highly discussed point here but payment is still discretionary and movement is already underway to do away to with the licence all together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Why would a licence fee be applicable? Is it stated Sc Govt policy to continue with such a scheme? I would have thought the easy solution is Scotland keeps whatever BBC infrastructure/buildings/equipment which is in place then it can choose what it wants. An independent broadcaster funded by means yet to be devised or hive off a licence or two to the public sector.. Those living close to the border gets the both of both worlds and the loss of a couple of Million licence fees (top end estimate) probably wouldn't bother the BBC. I know the licence fee is highly discussed point here but payment is still discretionary and movement is already underway to do away to with the licence all together. ....I don't understand why Alex Salmond wishes to keep the BBC anyway....is he a leftie pseudo intellectual Guardian reader ...?.....a rivalry between the SNP and Labour in Scotland would be a horrendous prospect....no difference between the two... once independent..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scunnered Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I'm still rahter mystified by David Cameron's contribution on Wednesday. He seems to have flown to Edinburgh, gone to the Scottish Widows offices, given a speech to a bunch of their employees, and then gone straight back to London. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11088354/Scottish-independence-A-historic-plea...-in-the-manner-of-Westlife.html What was the point of that? Did they think that speechifying to the staff of Scottish Widows was going to the decisive act that would help the average Scot in the street to see the light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trampa501 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 I'm still rahter mystified by David Cameron's contribution on Wednesday. He seems to have flown to Edinburgh, gone to the Scottish Widows offices, given a speech to a bunch of their employees, and then gone straight back to London. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11088354/Scottish-independence-A-historic-plea...-in-the-manner-of-Westlife.html What was the point of that? Did they think that speechifying to the staff of Scottish Widows was going to the decisive act that would help the average Scot in the street to see the light? Rumour is that Mr C was repelled by the Scottish reaction.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 A letter of solidarity http:// www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29169114 The letter warning of price rises has been written by Kingfisher Group head Sir Ian Cheshire, and signed by other business leaders, including the heads of John Lewis, Asda and Marks and Spencer. It will be published in the coming days. It's sounding like a coordinated cartel. Perhaps local businesses in Scotland should write a letter saying they're going to reduce prices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) In our opinion Scotland would fall into a deep recession. We believe deposit flight is both highly likely and highly problematic (with banks assets of 12x GDP) and should the Bank of England move to guarantee Scottish deposits, we expect it to extract a high fiscal and regulatory price (probably insisting on a primary budget surplus). The re-domiciling of the financial sector and UK public service jobs, as well as a legal dispute over North Sea oil, would further accelerate any downturn. In our opinion, as North Sea oil production slows, we estimate that the non-oil economy would need a 10% to 20% devaluation to restore competitiveness. This would require a 5% to 10% fall in wages, driven by a steep rise in unemployment. It's surprising that they didn't say anything about house prices. Shouldn't they be claiming that voting Yes would mean house prices being significantly cheaper (whether that's so or not) - seeing as massively high house prices are supposed to be so good for the economy. Edited September 12, 2014 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Guardian has an interesting breakdown of its polling by age: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2014/sep/12/scottish-referendum-too-close-to-call-says-icm-poll Seems like if you're working and under 35 you're heavily Yes, and under 45 moderately so. Average age of a UK first time buyer is 36 and climbing. Seriously, vote Yes and kick over our corrupt system. How else are we ever going to see change? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) A letter of solidarity It's sounding like a coordinated cartel. Perhaps local businesses in Scotland should write a letter saying they're going to reduce prices. No scare is being left unturned.The truth is retailers need customers and Scots money whatever the currency is going to be as good as the next mans. If John Lewis and M&S price themselves out of the market then someone else will take it. That is how capitalism is supposed to work. Is this story a tacit admission that UK retailing is really just a government sponsored private cartel running their own versions of GUM stores ? Edited September 12, 2014 by stormymonday_2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 (edited) I'm still rahter mystified by David Cameron's contribution on Wednesday. He seems to have flown to Edinburgh, gone to the Scottish Widows offices, given a speech to a bunch of their employees, and then gone straight back to London.http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scottish-independence/11088354/Scottish-independence-A-historic-plea...-in-the-manner-of-Westlife.htmlWhat was the point of that? Did they think that speechifying to the staff of Scottish Widows was going to the decisive act that would help the average Scot in the street to see the light?Modern Westminster party leaders are just PR clones.They can't handle unpremeditated face to face meetings with the voters. Every audience has to be hand picked and every photo opportunity has to be stage managed for them. The days when a Prime Ministers like Lloyd George, Macmillan or Wilson used to relish taking on public hecklers have long gone. Edited September 12, 2014 by stormymonday_2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 A friend of mine just sent me a text from Glasgow - am I allowed to answer him back? If we all close our eyes and turn our backs on Scotland will it disappear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geezer466 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 No scare is being left unturned. The truth is retailers need customers and Scots money whatever the currency is going to be as good as the next mans. If John Lewis and M&S price themselves out of the market then someone else will take it. That is how capitalism is supposed to work. Is this tacit admission that UK retailing is really just a government sponsored private cartel running their own versions of GUM stores Can't see M&S and the likes of John Lewis pi$$ing off their customer base intentionally even on the say so of a tory toff PM. Independence or not they still have to trade in these markets and why would they deliberately alienate customers? Reduced to its most simplistic, the customer base is lower and transport costs higher in Scotland. Supermarket chains are judged on 'like for like' sales - how sales compare with the same supermarkets the year before. Based on a cross UK basis, the subsidy for Scotland doesn't impact on 'like for like'. All big chains are doing it, therefore all have similar figures. However, when the big chains split into two - iScotland and rUK, the rUK businesses immediately do better 'like for like' when the subsidies stop.So the big chain will have a big rUK subsidiary doing well and a small iScotland one doing worse. Tesco rUK makes more money than Tesco iScotland simply because they are two seperate firms and rUK has more stores. Tesco currently uses the income from all its stores to offset the prices in its more remote ones. There will be little difference currently in the price of a tin of beans in Maidstone or Inverness as the firms currently pool the distribution cost differences. Post independence that will have to change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Can't see M&S and the likes of John Lewis pi$$ing off their customer base intentionally even on the say so of a tory toff PM. Think about the Lochmuir salmon! Oh, the heaven of it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 What about Scottish shortbread biscuits at Christmas? No salmon. No shortbread. No whisky. No Christmas... Oh, hang on... no bagpipes... no people in skirts doing that silly dance over crossed swords.... no mumbling Doctor Who.... Things are looking up.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 A friend of mine just sent me a text from Glasgow - am I allowed to answer him back? If we all close our eyes and turn our backs on Scotland will it disappear? Like Brigadoon you probably won't see it again for a hundred years. Anyway that is what Westminster hopes if the No vote wins the referendum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 The days when a Prime Ministers like Lloyd George, Macmillan or Wilson used to relish taking on public hecklers have long gone. Not that long. As recently as 1997 we had such a Prime Minister, hard as it is to believe now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted September 12, 2014 Share Posted September 12, 2014 Time for another interlude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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