Panorama Tonight, Bbc1 8.30pm

[Solvent Celt]

I watched a bit of it. I thought they'd chosen the people as examples so that people watching also in virtually the same situation or a few months away from it could distance themselves from the ejjits they showed.

When they showed the family on benefits on their motability scooters I was expecting Goldie Looking Chain* to start rapping.

[eric pebble]

When they showed the family on benefits on their motability scooters I was expecting Goldie Looking Chain* to start rapping.

And - Here - Leeson - the pro of all pros when it comes to scamming - tells it like it is. It is really quite simple. Regulation? Zero - and cr@p.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nick Leeson: The man who tested the UK banking system to destruction

Anyone who read the headlines and saw the queues of panic-stricken customers outside branches of Northern Rock yesterday will feel a little alarmed about the state of our financial institutions.

Over the past 12 years or so, we have enjoyed the benefits of rising property prices and low interest rates underpinned by stable global markets.

But this perception of "easy money" has lulled us into a sense of complacency.

We have forgotten the dangers of unrestrained borrowing and the lessons of the wild highs and lows of the Seventies and Eighties.

Now dire warnings from America and sharp questions from Mervyn King, the governor of the Bank of England, about the way mortgage lenders have structured their business have sounded sufficiently ominous to make us believe a financial crisis has been set in motion.

We are therefore entitled to ask what's going on – and whether those running our markets are playing fast and loose with the financial security of the nation.

My name is linked to one of the most notorious banking scandals in recent times, when my reckless trading led to the collapse of Barings, the UK's oldest merchant bank.

I spent years working in the financial markets and I know something about those responsible for the mess we are now in.

My experience tells me there are three main reasons for the crisis that has led to the Bank of England stepping in to guarantee emergency credit to solve Northern Rock's liquidity problems: greed, incompetence and a naive reliance on the power of computers to predict the future.

First, the greed. Anyone who followed the details of the Barings collapse will know there is a two-tier system in the major banking houses.

There is a highly pressured, fast-evolving money market populated by young men similar to the trader I once was.

They invariably have the biggest brains but are not always so scrupulous about how they make their vast bonuses.

The job of these traders and brokers is to make millions for big companies.

They compete ferociously to maximise profits for themselves and their masters.

But, increasingly, they do so in untried ways or by sidelining the caution and restraint of previous generations.

And when they are allowed to fly too high, it is easy for things to go badly wrong.

Working alongside them are the grey men of the back office.

And they are the second problem. They do the paperwork behind the traders' deals and run the regulatory systems.

It is their job to monitor the markets and ensure checks and balances are properly applied.

These bankers are invariably not up to it. The front end of the business is far more profitable.

The brightest and best are seduced by the lure of big bonuses, leaving the thirdraters and burn-outs to take safe desk jobs in staid institutions such as the Bank of England.

From my own experience, even simple things were done poorly by these people.

My own actions in the period 1992-95 were fraudulent and I was duly punished.

But my downfall distracted attention from the shortfalls of the system.

Barings would never have collapsed without the incompetence of others who should have known what was going on but either failed to detect it, didn't properly investigate or turned a blind eye.

[Injin]

Regulation is not only pointless but counter productive. It gives a false sense of security to an inherently broekn system.

This problem is systemic and caused by the way the banking system works. Until the basic nature of the banking system is altered, bubbles will arise again and again and again.

You cannot tame a shark.

Banks and building societies "lent" people "money" that didn't exist before they took the loans out. On this basis they get houses in exchange for paper and ink. When the market crashes, it's the bankers pay day.

It is in the interest of bankers to have a crash!

[hankdd]

No Income No Job or Assets

GROLIES- is my fave.

Guardian Reader Of Limited Intelligence In Ethnic Skirt

A G.P left his notes out, had to explain what it meant to the GROLIE and was royally bo##ocked.

[Solvent Celt]

Regulation is not only pointless but counter productive. It gives a false sense of security to an inherently broekn system.

This problem is systemic and caused by the way the banking system works. Until the basic nature of the banking system is altered, bubbles will arise again and again and again.

You cannot tame a shark.

Banks and building societies "lent" people "money" that didn't exist before they took the loans out. On this basis they get houses in exchange for paper and ink. When the market crashes, it's the bankers pay day.

It is in the interest of bankers to have a crash!

Yeah but excluding a wholesale systemic failure or an electorate so radicalised they will dismantle the current banking system regulation and ROBUST ENFORCEMENT is the only way to stop this abuse.

That the guy that had made millions from misselling was fined £50k is a joke. He should have been locked up and ALL his ill gotten gains confiscated.

Until theese shysters and spivs fear for their wealth they will carry on as it's profitable.

[Bloo Loo]

Yeah but excluding a wholesale systemic failure or an electorate so radicalised they will dismantle the current banking system regulation and ROBUST ENFORCEMENT is the only way to stop this abuse.

That the guy that had made millions from misselling was fined £50k is a joke. He should have been locked up and ALL his ill gotten gains confiscated.

Until theese shysters and spivs fear for their wealth they will carry on as it's profitable.

Mis-selling is not a crime

[The Masked Tulip]

I don't think it is right to look down our noses at people who are, how can I say this politely, not as well informed or perhaps as well educated about financial matters as many on this forum. The reality is us Brits generally are pretty lousey when it comes to financials and many in the UK still are naively trusting of banks and financial institutions.

A recent article in Moneyweek compared what has gone on in recent years re mortgages to that of endowments in the 1970s and 80s - commission led sales and pointed out that whenever there was anything that involved a salesman selling something on commission to the Public that inevitably a huge scandal would eventually follow.

People in the UK have gone into banks, trusted them because they were brought up to trust them and had no idea that the boy or girl selling them their mortgage was on a big commission. I think the majority of people in the UK still stupidly believe that Banks, and people working in them, have their best interests as a priority.

I thought those yuppie flats on the Thames looked well knackered already. Goodness what they will look like in 5 years.

[Merryn]

I don't think it is right to look down our noses at people who are, how can I say this politely, not as well informed or perhaps as well educated about financial matters as many on this forum. The reality is us Brits generally are pretty lousey when it comes to financials and many in the UK still are naively trusting of banks and financial institutions.

A recent article in Moneyweek compared what has gone on in recent years re mortgages to that of endowments in the 1970s and 80s - commission led sales and pointed out that whenever there was anything that involved a salesman selling something on commission to the Public that inevitably a huge scandal would eventually follow.

People in the UK have gone into banks, trusted them because they were brought up to trust them and had no idea that the boy or girl selling them their mortgage was on a big commission. I think the majority of people in the UK still stupidly believe that Banks, and people working in them, have their best interests as a priority.

I thought those yuppie flats on the Thames looked well knackered already. Goodness what they will look like in 5 years.

Couldn't agree more, MT. I felt incredibly sorry for the couple who

lost the council house they had happily lived in and brought up

a family for 20 years.

OK, so they were naiive to think they

could afford to buy - but that was precisely the thing that some b***tard

mortgage broker took advantage of.

They tried to "beter themselves" which is a natural human instinct, and

ended up shafted. I don't think it behoves any of us to sneer at their

misfortune.

I am just incredibly angry at the vile, corrupt financial services

industry that has skewed the housing market and ruined so many lives in

different ways.

[Injin]

Yeah but excluding a wholesale systemic failure or an electorate so radicalised they will dismantle the current banking system regulation and ROBUST ENFORCEMENT is the only way to stop this abuse.

That the guy that had made millions from misselling was fined £50k is a joke. He should have been locked up and ALL his ill gotten gains confiscated.

Until theese shysters and spivs fear for their wealth they will carry on as it's profitable.

Makes no sense.

You are asking the people who set this fiasco up and directly benefit from it to do it in a bit more orderly fashion in future.

They will happily agree, it lends respectability to their lunatic "pretend to lend" game and your grandchildren will still be debt slaves.

Not something I can join you in advocating, sorry.

[Solvent Celt]

Mis-selling is not a crime

I'm not a lawyer but if it isn't it bloody well should be. Obtaining goods and services by deception would seem to fit the bill I'd have thought.

If the couple in the film were told that "the mortgage payments will be the same as what you are paying now" then that is fraud as far as I'm concerned. I don't think supplying them with a ream of very complex explanatory paperwork setting out the exact terms trumps the initial fraudulent claims made by the salesman.

If the mis-selling is accompanied by fraudulent mortgage applications then that compounds the criminality.

Lets face it the marks featured weren't the smartest knives in the draw. In fact at least in 2 cases they were pretty "vulnerable" I'd say.

[Solvent Celt]

Makes no sense.

You are asking the people who set this fiasco up and directly benefit from it to do it in a bit more orderly fashion in future.

They will happily agree, it lends respectability to their lunatic "pretend to lend" game and your grandchildren will still be debt slaves.

Not something I can join you in advocating, sorry.

Whatever

[yaruar]

For amusement... The flats bought in thamemead fradulently and with inflated prices (the joys of a rising market, people will pay anything...)

http://www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.a...p;agentid=01531

The average property price currently in that block..

Someone who doesn't understand that they got ripped off.....

http://www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.a...p;agentid=12549

[Guest An Bearin Bui]

Brown is a bullsh1tter through and through, he has little regard for the country, except his own that is (Scotland) and the rest of us are just here to finance his over ambitious plans.

Brown couldn't give a damn for Scotland either: you should see his home constituency of Fife. Kirkcaldy is such a depressing town (sorry if anyone on the forum is from there but it is) and the unemployment rate is quite high for local people. There are whole chunks of the area that are just neglected ex-mining wastelands, huge big council blocks on the sea-front full of elderly and disabled people scraping by. Honestly parts of Fife e.g. Glenrothes are on a par with what I saw in Poland and former East Germany. What's worse is that the local population are priced out of their own area because people earning good money in Edinburgh moved out there to buy up large houses on the cheap. Now nobody can afford the local houses on a non-Edinburgh wage. So GB's boom has priced out his own constituents and he hasn't even brought any jobs to the area or done anything for his own people. It's hard to believe driving through Fife and Kirkcaldy that the local MP was the Chancellor of the Exchequer for c.10 years. It's completely neglected and forgotten - Brown might care a little bit about Edinburgh and Glasgow (just because he has to) but he couldn't care less about Fife and doesn't even live in Kirkcaldy.

[Timm]

Brown couldn't give a damn for Scotland either: you should see his home constituency of Fife ... he couldn't care less about Fife ...

Full Right to buy rights were suspended in Fife last year due to them being designated as a "pressured" authority.

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Releases/2006/05/08093314

[nmarks]

Of course not, they've probably got 500 episodes of Homes under the Hammer already in the can - its cheap telly.

Funny how cheap credit and cheap telly have gone hand in hand.

Tragically it now looks like the Beeb are going to be slashing production of factual TV shows.

Seems to me the government want the public to be even less informed than now.

[Si1]

For amusement... The flats bought in thamemead fradulently and with inflated prices (the joys of a rising market, people will pay anything...)

http://www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.a...p;agentid=01531

The average property price currently in that block..

Someone who doesn't understand that they got ripped off.....

http://www.findaproperty.com/displayprop.a...p;agentid=12549

err...no...prices can't THEY CAN'T I TELL YOU... fall by more than about 15%, fixed with another year's rises. it's so obvious. fundamentals. supply and demand.

[nmarks]

GROLIES- is my fave.

Guardian Reader Of Limited Intelligence In Ethnic Skirt

A G.P left his notes out, had to explain what it meant to the GROLIE and was royally bo##ocked.

I couldn't help laughing at that. A bloke I used to work with was exactly one of these - and a right royal p**c too.

On casual clothes days he'd make a point of coming into work dressed in such a way as to push the limits of acceptability, kilts etc.

One week he asked me and my colleagues for suggestions and someone jokingly mentioned a sarong.

So this 6' 6", 25 stone, 60-something, greying, bearded ex-hippy turned up in a cheap, knackered old sarong that he'd dug up somewhere, occasionally accidentally flashing his b******s to unfortunate victims. Not only was he a complete a*****e, he exposed it too.

To this day I'm convinced the manager kept him on - not only for the novelty value - but to inflict the nuisance he caused everyone else.

The horror, the horror . . . . .

Edited October 9, 2007 by nmarks

[Crash Buyer]

Mis-selling is not a crime

Sure, but the sheeple must always have someone else to blame for their mistakes.

Its always someone else's fault.

Someone previously coined the term "Financial Darwinism" on HPC - we are now seeing the start of this process.

[Guest DissipatedYouthIsValuable]

GROLIES- is my fave.

Guardian Reader Of Limited Intelligence In Ethnic Skirt

A G.P left his notes out, had to explain what it meant to the GROLIE and was royally bo##ocked.

How about this one?

T.F. BUNDY.

Totally ******ed but unfortunately not dead yet.

[eric pebble]

Couldn't agree more, MT. I felt incredibly sorry for the couple who

lost the council house they had happily lived in and brought up

a family for 20 years.

OK, so they were naiive to think they

could afford to buy - but that was precisely the thing that some b***tard

mortgage broker took advantage of.

They tried to "beter themselves" which is a natural human instinct, and

ended up shafted. I don't think it behoves any of us to sneer at their

misfortune.

I am just incredibly angry at the vile, corrupt financial services

industry that has skewed the housing market and ruined so many lives in

different ways.

Agree totally.

[southsea13]

Agree totally.

It has been pointed out that `Financial Darwinism` is a phenomenon, and now we`re beginning to see that in practice: smarmy little sales gits pounced on unsuspecting people who, indeed, wanted to better themselves; just a matter of time before the vultures move in now.

Although a lot has been said about the `security` of owning a property, it was a shame that the couple didn`t sit down and realise that they were replacing one landlord (the local authority, subject to a whole load of checks and balances), with another (the market, red in tooth and claw). Of course, with hindsight, that`s easy to say and these `sales types` can be very slick and persuasive. Not much better than cowboy builders who go round ripping off pensioners, but, hey (unfortunately), they`re not breaking the law :angry:

[eric pebble]

It has been pointed out that `Financial Darwinism` is a phenomenon, and now we`re beginning to see that in practice: smarmy little sales gits pounced on unsuspecting people who, indeed, wanted to better themselves; just a matter of time before the vultures move in now.

Although a lot has been said about the `security` of owning a property, it was a shame that the couple didn`t sit down and realise that they were replacing one landlord (the local authority, subject to a whole load of checks and balances), with another (the market, red in tooth and claw). Of course, with hindsight, that`s easy to say and these `sales types` can be very slick and persuasive. Not much better than cowboy builders who go round ripping off pensioners, but, hey (unfortunately), they`re not breaking the law :angry:

Agree.

[Ellie]

I don't think it is right to look down our noses at people who are, how can I say this politely, not as well informed or perhaps as well educated about financial matters as many on this forum. The reality is us Brits generally are pretty lousey when it comes to financials and many in the UK still are naively trusting of banks and financial institutions.

A recent article in Moneyweek compared what has gone on in recent years re mortgages to that of endowments in the 1970s and 80s - commission led sales and pointed out that whenever there was anything that involved a salesman selling something on commission to the Public that inevitably a huge scandal would eventually follow.

People in the UK have gone into banks, trusted them because they were brought up to trust them and had no idea that the boy or girl selling them their mortgage was on a big commission. I think the majority of people in the UK still stupidly believe that Banks, and people working in them, have their best interests as a priority.

I thought those yuppie flats on the Thames looked well knackered already. Goodness what they will look like in 5 years.

I also agree totally with this.

RANT - there is a lot of mocking on this forum of "sheeple" making foolish decision -well of course they f***ing do - when is it ever taught to people in school or anywhere else that any financial institution that they deal with is basically out to shaft them? The government gives out all the shite about financial inclusion and encouraging people to talk to banks and get into the "system" thereby encouraging them to trust "banks and financial instiutions" -and what does the banking system do? Shaft them with a 100% mortgage that they could never afford! I know of many people that were encouraged to buy their council house BY THE HOUSING DEPARTMENT OF THEIR LOCAL AUTHORITY! And what happens? they are often subprime so they buy a mortage from a subprime lender. Even if they are not, they don't understand the difference and then unwittingly get a mortgage from a subprime when they could have got a better deal elsewhere. These people are not financially astute, why should they be? Their parents never did this, they rented and as above, nothing in their educaiton prepares them for dealing with these sharks. These sub prime lenders are not in it for the long game - at any opportunity they will go for repossession -thats what they do- get their fees upfront - wait for for the inevitable default on payments - the move to repossess. End result - a family who had a secure rental tenancy with the council is homeless and forced into insecure private rented accommodation.

The whole thing is a scandal and it reflects badly on all of us as a society that we not only let if happen, but then mock people who suffer because of it. Shame on all of us.

[sheppo]

"End result - a family who had a secure rental tenancy with the council is homeless and forced into insecure private rented accommodation."

Whilst I'm sure there are many vulnerable people who get caught out this way, there are also some lazy, greedy sods who see buying their council house as a way to make loads of cash on the back of HPI without having to work for it. If they end up in insecure private rented accomodation, tough ****! Many of us are there already, purely by working hard enough not to get a council flat!

They should be out on the street, keep the welfare state for those who genuinely need it.

[Bloo Loo]

I'm not a lawyer but if it isn't it bloody well should be. Obtaining goods and services by deception would seem to fit the bill I'd have thought.

If the couple in the film were told that "the mortgage payments will be the same as what you are paying now" then that is fraud as far as I'm concerned. I don't think supplying them with a ream of very complex explanatory paperwork setting out the exact terms trumps the initial fraudulent claims made by the salesman.

If the mis-selling is accompanied by fraudulent mortgage applications then that compounds the criminality.

Lets face it the marks featured weren't the smartest knives in the draw. In fact at least in 2 cases they were pretty "vulnerable" I'd say.

"the Marks" ???? I couldnt agree more, LOL- Its so obvious now youve put it so succinctly