shlomo Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 https://www.moneycontrol.com/news/trends/amazons-just-walk-out-tech-was-actually-powered-by-low-paid-indian-workers-report-12566201.html Amazon is removing ‘Just Walk Out’ technology from its Amazon Fresh stores. The technology allowed people to enter a store, grab what they wanted and leave without checking out. Receipts were sent to the customers afterwards. Hailed as a triumph of technology and AI when it was introduced in 2018, the Just Walk Out system actually relied on manual human labour, it has now emerged. According to a report in The Information, Amazon claimed that it used a host of cameras and sensors around the store to track what customers grabbed. However, the e-commerce giant also used hundreds of Indian workers to track customers instead of relying purely on AI and technology. An army of over 1,000 workers, sitting in India, took on the role of remote cashiers to check what customers were leaving the store with, The Information reported. The work of cashiers was effectively outsourced to India, undercutting local jobs. Now, after five years, Amazon has decided to do away with the Just Walk Out technology from its Amazon Fresh stores, since it was getting to be too time-consuming. The outsourced workers, sitting in India, apparently took hours to compile the data they tracked. This data was then used to generate receipts that customers would receive much later. Amazon says the Just Walk Out tech will now be replaced by smart carts that allow customers to skip the checkout line but also see their spending in real time. While redesigning Fresh stores in the past year, Amazon spokesperson Carly Golden said the company heard from customers who enjoy skipping the checkout line but also wanted to view their receipts and savings as they shopped. Golden said the smart carts will give customers these benefits as well as the convenience of skipping the checkout line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trampa501 Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Bezos got lucky when he realised that the web space he needed for his online operations, could also make money selling on. He doesn't strike me as being in the same league as Musk, Zuckerberg or Thiel. Uniqlo has a good automatic till/price box system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual-observer Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 It’s the same story again and again. The efficiency of Remote Indian workers from inception craters within 2/3 years once the turnover has reached critical mass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Casual-observer said: It’s the same story again and again. The efficiency of Remote Indian workers from inception craters within 2/3 years once the turnover has reached critical mass. Thank you for bringing this critical insight to light. In a story about corporate deception around the misrepresentation of their use of technology, and the societal consequences of automation, you've skilfully managed to identify the true culprit: “Remote Indian workers" and their ability to "crater" efficiency. 👍 Edited April 3 by Frugal Git Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual-observer Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Frugal Git said: Thank you for bringing this critical insight to light. In a story about corporate deception around the misrepresentation of their use of technology, you've skilfully managed to identify the true culprit: “Remote Indian workers" and their ability to "crater" efficiency. 👍 No problem. 1) it was in house tech for their own brand so exactly whom were Amazon deceiving other than themselves? 2) they could have developed sky net, it still doesn’t distract it’ll fall to pieces the minute you fall victim to upper class Indian castes flogging their glorified slave class as reliable operators. Edited April 3 by Casual-observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 I think this was a case of Amazon setting up a "manual" way of tracking sales and hoping they could standardise the process enough that they could pass it off to A.I. or maybe some more automated process. "Automatic baskets" is an old technology. Companies like Decathlon have used a similar technology at their tills a few years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynamehere Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 Amazon has been pulling this prank for years, even made a product out of it, Mechanical Turk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottbeard Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 Ha! It’s like the wizard of oz - only with an Indian behind the curtain Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hurlerontheditch Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 12 minutes ago, scottbeard said: Ha! It’s like the wizard of oz - only with an Indian behind the curtain 😁 I have used one of these before, in London. I thought it was amazing as the person working there told me i will get the bill later after the data has been analysed. little old me assumed it was in an AI data centre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frugal Git Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 (edited) 17 hours ago, Casual-observer said: No problem. 1) it was in house tech for their own brand so exactly whom were Amazon deceiving other than themselves? 2) they could have developed sky net, it still doesn’t distract it’ll fall to pieces the minute you fall victim to upper class Indian castes flogging their glorified slave class as reliable operators. Ahhhh - I see! My apologies for misunderstanding Amazon's grand scheme. Those misleading Linus Tech Tips promo videos, the fawning press releases extolling their "groundbreaking" automated stores – all an elaborate attempt to convince themselves they would get there eventually, but let’s fake it till we make it 👍 And of course, blaming their failed project on readily exploitable workers is much more logical than facing the shortcomings around their ML models being more difficult to train than the Seattleites had envisaged. If only Amazon had tapped into the mythical "master engineer caste" instead of those pesky "glorified slaves," perhaps their technology wouldn't have crumbled under the sheer weight of its own ambition. Let this be a lesson to us all! Edited April 4 by Frugal Git Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual-observer Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 12 minutes ago, Frugal Git said: Ahhhh - I see! My apologies for misunderstanding Amazon's grand scheme. Those misleading Linus Tech Tips promo videos, the fawning press releases extolling their "groundbreaking" automated stores – all an elaborate attempt to convince themselves they would get there eventually, but let’s fake it till we make it 👍 And of course, blaming their failed project on readily exploitable workers is much more logical than facing the shortcomings around their ML models being more difficult to train than the Seattleites had envisaged. If only Amazon had tapped into the mythical "master engineer caste" instead of those pesky "glorified slaves," perhaps their technology wouldn't have crumbled under the sheer weight of its own ambition. Let this be a lesson to us all! You've still not answered the question and just recycled my own flippant remark. Who were Amazon actually deceiving exactly? Every firm on the planet puffs up their own abilities, it doesn't actually equate to rampant deception. It was their own in house product end to end so who was being deceived? Also in no way did I allude to it solely being an issue with *just* lower caste Indians however speaking from experience a lot of outsourced projects reliant on them do inevitably collapse, it's not unique to just Amazon. A subservient Indian class brought up to not question authority simply doesn't jive with western process's that requires some sort of independent thinking. The upper castes who dominate these projects ensure the calibre of person first brought in is capable, once the inks dry they simply move on and atrophy sets in where the newer replacements just aren't up to it. There's no 'blame' here on those exploited workers..I'm simply conveying the reality of what usually happens when western firms are sold the dream of what cheap Indian workers can deliver long term and that's irrespective of how good or bad the tech is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord D'arcy Pew Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 hours ago, scottbeard said: Ha! It’s like the wizard of oz - only with an Indian behind the curtain No, no they have scanners now. It must be real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sour Mash Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 4 hours ago, scottbeard said: Ha! It’s like the wizard of oz - only with an Indian behind the curtain I think it's brilliant - hats off to Amazon for having the chutzpah to try it. Ironically, AI is at the point now where it conceivably could do the job using actually computational technology. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
regprentice Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 On 04/04/2024 at 11:48, Casual-observer said: You've still not answered the question and just recycled my own flippant remark. Who were Amazon actually deceiving exactly? Every firm on the planet puffs up their own abilities, it doesn't actually equate to rampant deception. It was their own in house product end to end so who was being deceived? ... If I'm in an Amazon store in the UK, and my biometric information is sent to and processed by a person in India, when actually I believe it's processed by "AI" on a server in Europe, that's a GDPR breach. Amazon Web Services (AWS) is in everything nowadays. I worked on a public sector project that hinged on AWS to share data between organisations. If you can't trust Amazon to keep you legal and compliant you'd have to ditch their services - easier said than done .... After slew of AWS deals the CDDO says current approach might weaken its position Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Orange Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 1 minute ago, regprentice said: If I'm in an Amazon store in the UK, and my biometric information is sent to and processed by a person in India, when actually I believe it's processed by "AI" on a server in Europe, that's a GDPR breach. Amazon Web Services (AWS) is in everything nowadays. I worked on a public sector project that hinged on AWS to share data between organisations. If you can't trust Amazon to keep you legal and compliant you'd have to ditch their services - easier said than done .... After slew of AWS deals the CDDO says current approach might weaken its position Pick your poison; Microsoft dominates the cloud computing/data farm sector to a similar extent with Azure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 On 03/04/2024 at 22:21, Casual-observer said: No problem. 1) it was in house tech for their own brand so exactly whom were Amazon deceiving other than themselves? 2) they could have developed sky net, it still doesn’t distract it’ll fall to pieces the minute you fall victim to upper class Indian castes flogging their glorified slave class as reliable operators. Ah, but the manual intervention has somewhat of a Horizonesque feel to it. Were the Amazon Fresh stores franchises? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 15 minutes ago, regprentice said: Amazon Web Services (AWS) is in everything nowadays. I worked on a public sector project that hinged on AWS to share data between organisations. If you can't trust Amazon to keep you legal and compliant you'd have to ditch their services - easier said than done .... After slew of AWS deals the CDDO says current approach might weaken its position Yes, just been reading that in El Reg: https://www.theregister.com/2024/04/04/uk_cddo_admits_cloud_spending_lock_issues_exclusive/?td=rt-3a I've zero confidence in AWS or Azure. Just read this report into the MSFT summer 2023 Exchange hack, total incompetence: https://www.cisa.gov/sites/default/files/2024-04/CSRB_Review_of_the_Summer_2023_MEO_Intrusion_Final_508c.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fellow Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord D'arcy Pew Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 (edited) A.I. Your plastic pal that's no fun to be with. Edited April 6 by Lord D'arcy Pew Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dames Posted April 6 Share Posted April 6 So i take it the driverless cars of the future will be piloted remotely from India. D 😁 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual-observer Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 (edited) On 4/6/2024 at 12:53 PM, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Ah, but the manual intervention has somewhat of a Horizonesque feel to it. Were the Amazon Fresh stores franchises? I believe so yes and I don't disagree with the point in itself in that it wasn't quite the AI everyone assumed it was. Where seemingly the other poster seemed to take issue on though was the mere mention of Indian workers alone. All I was simply saying was any it won't have helped the situation. Corporate western mindset thinking (out of sight, out of mind and cheap to boot) blends with India's caste culture offering cheap workers. Regularly it happens where the donkey work inevitably ends up in the hands of those on the bottom rung of that caste system. The two together eventually combine and the result is usually this outcome, failure. Edited April 8 by Casual-observer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Casual-observer Posted April 8 Share Posted April 8 On 4/6/2024 at 3:15 PM, Dames said: So i take it the driverless cars of the future will be piloted remotely from India. D 😁 Funny but it sums up the point. Until an AI is developed sufficiently enough where it can adapt and be flexible on the spot (I.E the AI Hollywood peddle's in sci fi) then it'll show it's limitations regularly. Until the requirement for a building full of 'analysts' is gone then the limitations will always remain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shlomo Posted April 8 Author Share Posted April 8 On 4/6/2024 at 3:15 PM, Dames said: So i take it the driverless cars of the future will be piloted remotely from India. D 😁 If you had been to India and seen the quality of their driving skills, you would advocate a public transport system using buses Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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