BBC: Workers over 50 encouraged to end early retirement

[A.steve]

7 minutes ago, sta100 said:

...a fairly good example of negative stereotyping...

Yes.  I was wondering what an influx of older staff, with no interest in their careers, might suit.  Of course, they will be ideal for roles requiring disinterested, unaccountable, middle management.  Perhaps some could be entrepreneurial - and find engagements as de-motivational speakers?  Perhaps they'd have the experience required to take part in strikes?

[sta100]

1 minute ago, Dharm999 said:

Where did I say widespread discrimination doesn’t go on?  I’m fully aware it goes on.  
 

Middle aged white men have had it good for a long time, it’s not a lie.  Is it right they are being discriminated against, if they genuinely are, then no it isn’t.  Maybe it then makes them realise that they are in the same boat as lots of other people, who have been discriminated against, and it might,might, make them think about how good they had it and actually they need to work harder if they want to get back in to a job, the same way minorities have had to.  Maybe we will end up with a more level recruitment playing field, but I won’t hold my breath, turkeys don’t vote for Christmas

I have to say once again as a minority, I don't support discrimination for whatever reason. I've been put down by some middle aged white men and pulled up by some. I honestly don't see how people can't see the divisiveness that's being stoked by a lot of the justifications that are being made for poor behaviour.

Either you are anti discrimination or you are not, there's no middle ground.

[Chunketh]

7 minutes ago, sta100 said:

And how well are these folk doing their jobs? Has there been a long term impact study yet?

No idea. If their performance is poor they should be replaced.

[kzb]

1 hour ago, sta100 said:

I think he's wrong. But he's got a point if suggesting older white men would not want to come back an environment in which they have to watch their backs continually due to the clash of old culture versus new. 

Crikey it's Christmas eve and he's (not you) like a rabid dog.

TBH it wasn't this I was getting at.  All I am saying is, you have a vacancy and a workforce that currently does not meet  diversity targets.

One applicant is another 50+ white male and another is a black female.  Who you going to pick?

[sta100]

1 minute ago, Chunketh said:

No idea. If their performance is poor they should be replaced.

Well going by the reasoning on this thread, they're not doing that great a job on the whole.

[Chunketh]

8 minutes ago, sta100 said:

Ah right, so you have some older white folk friends. But laugh at white older men being negatively stereotyped as a group. Interesting.

Now you are just making stuff up.

I laugh at older white men whinging about having other ethnic groups / the opposite sex as equals.

As should everyone.

[Chunketh]

Just now, sta100 said:

Well going by the reasoning on this thread, they're not doing that great a job on the whole.

I think there is a lot of whinging about how it’s harder to get a job as an older white male. If it’s ageism I’ve got a lot of sympathy, that needs eradicating.

if it’s that an a different ethnicity got the job, jog on and try harder. There is no such thing as two equal candidates, one is always better. In my experience, ethnic minorities just try a lot harder at interview over their white male cohort.

[sta100]

1 minute ago, Chunketh said:

Now you are just making stuff up.

I laugh at older white men whinging about having other ethnic groups / the opposite sex as equals.

As should everyone.

No I'm not the proof is earlier in this thread when you laughed at the post made by @sPinwheelwhere he negatively stereotyped older white men for no reason other than to try to negate a valid point that it's difficult for people to cope when workplace cultures and practices change. That doesn't infer that there was any level of sexism or racism on their part in the first place.

 

[sta100]

4 minutes ago, Chunketh said:

I think there is a lot of whinging about how it’s harder to get a job as an older white male. If it’s ageism I’ve got a lot of sympathy, that needs eradicating.

if it’s that an a different ethnicity got the job, jog on and try harder. There is no such thing as two equal candidates, one is always better. In my experience, ethnic minorities just try a lot harder at interview over their white male cohort.

older white men is a subgroup that is negatively stereotyped. you partook in in in this thread whether you like it or not, it's there and you need to take a good look at yourself.

and no im not going to jog on when pointing out when discrimination is occurring. as an ethnic minority if you care so much about our plight, I don't need people like you causing more division.

Edited December 24, 2022 by sta100

[Dharm999]

4 minutes ago, sta100 said:

I have to say once again as a minority, I don't support discrimination for whatever reason. I've been put down by some middle aged white men and pulled up by some. I honestly don't see how people can't see the divisiveness that's being stoked by a lot of the justifications that are being made for poor behaviour.

Either you are anti discrimination or you are not, there's no middle ground.

And also as a minority, I have faced the same things you have.  It’s just I have little sympathy, not none, for people who have had a large historical benefit complaining that they are now facing the things that we may have faced for years.

I agree that there shouldn’t be discrimination, but that’s a utopia we will never get to

[sta100]

Just now, Dharm999 said:

And also as a minority, I have faced the same things you have.  It’s just I have little sympathy, not none, for people who have had a large historical benefit complaining that they are now facing the things that we may have faced for years.

I agree that there shouldn’t be discrimination, but that’s a utopia we will never get to

You want to be as bad as them that's your choice. I wouldn't wish what I've experienced on anyone.

[Dharm999]

4 minutes ago, sta100 said:

You want to be as bad as them that's your choice. I wouldn't wish what I've experienced on anyone.

Now I feel you are putting words in to my mouth.  Whenever I’ve recruited, it’s always been based on merit, and all but one recruit has been white, and the majority were female, and over 50.  Maybe I’m not a typical recruiter, but I have never done to other people what was done to me, so for you to suggest I have is simply disgusting.

 

[sta100]

17 minutes ago, Dharm999 said:

Now I feel you are putting words in to my mouth.  Whenever I’ve recruited, it’s always been based on merit, and all but one recruit has been white, and the majority were female, and over 50.  Maybe I’m not a typical recruiter, but I have never done to other people what was done to me, so for you to suggest I have is simply disgusting.

 

Well that's interesting. I had no idea whether you're a recruiter. Simply someone who has said on this thread if white older men get discriminated against it might teach them a lesson. Didn't put those words into your mouth they're right here.

Quote

 Is it right they are being discriminated against, if they genuinely are, then no it isn’t.  Maybe it then makes them realise that they are in the same boat as lots of other people, who have been discriminated against, and it might,might, make them think about how good they had it and actually they need to work harder if they want to get back in to a job, the same way minorities have had to.  

There are no lessons to be learned from it whatsoever, it's just out and out wrong. What it's more likely to teach them is to be angry and bitter and stoke up more division.

And once again I don't agree with it nor think any form of discrimination is going to promote harmony across races. I have no idea how anyone can come to the conclusion that it solves problems.

Edited December 24, 2022 by sta100

[A.steve]

Just now, sta100 said:

Either you are anti discrimination or you are not, there's no middle ground.

Are you sure?  I'm not.  The problem with 'discrimination' is that there's an implicit assumption that we mean discrimination against a demographic that are different in arbitrary and irrelevant ways.  It is never entirely clear which distinctions are acceptable, and which unacceptable, as foundations for decision making.  Whether we admit it, or not, every sentient person actively discriminates all the time... and, if it were not so, it would be in a dystopia worse than any envisioned in fiction.  The idea that someone could (let alone should) be 'anti discrimination' is absurd... it is a smoke-screen - a cover up.

I can't think of anything that could be more insulting and malicious than telling someone that they're acceptable only because I must not discriminate against 'their sort'.  Everyone discriminates; discrimination is a necessary part of being human.  Only a liar would try to claim that they don't discriminate. The issue at hand should be whether people discriminate competently; about whether they have good judgement; about their diligence and honesty... despite these being ambitious goals... at which no-one will always succeed.  Rather than tackle the genuine issues, it is far easier to focus on specific traits one must not be seen as if one might be discriminating against.  The irony, of course, is that this idea is the opposite of what it purports to be. It shifts discriminating against people on the unreasonable basis that they have an irrelevant trait... for discriminating against people on the unreasonable basis that they lack an irrelevant trait.  The issue is not that discrimination is necessary - the issue is where it is being done dishonestly and incompetently.

[Dharm999]

11 minutes ago, sta100 said:

Well that's interesting. I had no idea whether you're a recruiter. Simply someone who has said on this thread if white older men get discriminated against it might teach them a lesson. There are no lessons to be learned from it whatsoever, it's just out and out wrong.

Didn't put those words into your mouth. And once again I don't agree with it nor think this is a good strategy for promoting harmony across races.

I agree with you that it’s wrong, and it shouldn’t happen, but we both know from experience that discrimination happens, and always will.  And you’re right it doesn’t promote harmony across races. Personally I don’t believe white middle aged men are widely discriminated  against on the basis of race, but are on the basis of age and more pertinent to the problem of getting over 50s back to work.

 

[sta100]

27 minutes ago, Dharm999 said:

I agree with you that it’s wrong, and it shouldn’t happen, but we both know from experience that discrimination happens, and always will.  And you’re right it doesn’t promote harmony across races. Personally I don’t believe white middle aged men are widely discriminated  against on the basis of race, but are on the basis of age and more pertinent to the problem of getting over 50s back to work.

 

Fair enough. I went on ANL marches with a lot of this demographic many years ago and have many peers and friends who are having trouble navigating all of this and come to me with questions about how they're being perceived who I know have no bias whatsoever so perhaps this is why I'm a bit more sensitive to it.

On the flipside there are still quite a few racist twits of that demographic floating around.

Edited December 24, 2022 by sta100

[anonguest]

11 hours ago, HousePriceTooHigh said:

With the labour market being so tight right now we need to get everybody back to work.

There are 1.247 million registered unemployed. Almost ONE AND A QUARTER MILLION!  And you call that a tight labour market.

How about 'incentivising' just a fraction of those, particularly younger claimants, to get off their arses - rather than seek to punish those whose working lives are nearly over and choose to make a personal decision about whether or not to stop working.

Edited December 24, 2022 by anonguest

[TerryBoi]

2 hours ago, Maghull Mike said:

The Mails spin on it

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11571079/Rishi-Sunak-plans-bring-thousands-50s-work-offering-midlife-MOT.html

Millions of British gammons making decisions in their own self-interest.

In aggregate they've probably made the right decision.

Generally always bet on the fact that the Gov has it the wrong way around.

I very much doubt Rishi's scheme will achieve anything.

[TerryBoi]

1 hour ago, A.steve said:

Are you sure?  I'm not.  The problem with 'discrimination' is that there's an implicit assumption that we mean discrimination against a demographic that are different in arbitrary and irrelevant ways.  It is never entirely clear which distinctions are acceptable, and which unacceptable, as foundations for decision making.  Whether we admit it, or not, every sentient person actively discriminates all the time... and, if it were not so, it would be in a dystopia worse than any envisioned in fiction.  The idea that someone could (let alone should) be 'anti discrimination' is absurd... it is a smoke-screen - a cover up.

I can't think of anything that could be more insulting and malicious than telling someone that they're acceptable only because I must not discriminate against 'their sort'.  Everyone discriminates; discrimination is a necessary part of being human.  Only a liar would try to claim that they don't discriminate. The issue at hand should be whether people discriminate competently; about whether they have good judgement; about their diligence and honesty... despite these being ambitious goals... at which no-one will always succeed.  Rather than tackle the genuine issues, it is far easier to focus on specific traits one must not be seen as if one might be discriminating against.  The irony, of course, is that this idea is the opposite of what it purports to be. It shifts discriminating against people on the unreasonable basis that they have an irrelevant trait... for discriminating against people on the unreasonable basis that they lack an irrelevant trait.  The issue is not that discrimination is necessary - the issue is where it is being done dishonestly and incompetently.

“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

― Rev. Jesse Jackson

[bartelbe]

Brexit blown up in the face of the Tories. They thought they would get cheess disgrace's Britain Unchained, an island of serfs, with no EU regulations to protect them, to make them all rich.

Instead, with the end of free movement, they face labour shortages and the horror of having to give the plebs money to get them to work. Hence their pathetic desperation to increase the labour supply.

Sorry Tories, you want to encourage people to work, you'ill have to pay them. Brexit was your idea after all.

[Lenelby]

5 minutes ago, bartelbe said:

Brexit blown up in the face of the Tories. They thought they would get cheess disgrace's Britain Unchained, an island of serfs, with no EU regulations to protect them, to make them all rich.

Instead, with the end of free movement, they face labour shortages and the horror of having to give the plebs money to get them to work. Hence their pathetic desperation to increase the labour supply.

Sorry Tories, you want to encourage people to work, you'ill have to pay them. Brexit was your idea after all.

Stuart Rose, who led the remain campaign, predicted wages would rise after Brexit.
 

I feel many workers rather liked that prospect so his warnings had the opposite effect to that intended. 

[A.steve]

3 minutes ago, TerryBoi said:

“There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps... then turn around and see somebody white and feel relieved.”

― Rev. Jesse Jackson

There are many ways that could be interpreted... however, it should be painful as he's admitting that his judgement is poor and that he is prone to make unjustified inferences about the nature of genuine risk.  There's nothing wrong with being relieved when one perceives no threat... but it is a logical error to attribute that relief to something irrelevant.  One of the most pernicious aspects of racism is that its effects are so ingrained that tribal instincts must be difficult to shake - even (perhaps especially) when they aren't relevant.

[TerryBoi]

14 minutes ago, A.steve said:

There are many ways that could be interpreted... however, it should be painful as he's admitting that his judgement is poor and that he is prone to make unjustified inferences about the nature of genuine risk.  There's nothing wrong with being relieved when one perceives no threat... but it is a logical error to attribute that relief to something irrelevant.  One of the most pernicious aspects of racism is that its effects are so ingrained that tribal instincts must be difficult to shake - even (perhaps especially) when they aren't relevant.

Maybe.

Another interpretation could be that his pain arises from his realization that the perception is justified.

[wighty]

 

[hotblack42]

From about 1990 to 2010ish, most people over 50 who lost their job were thrown on the scrap heap without a backward glance.

If the section of this demographic, who can be arsed to return to the workplace, can now grind the rest of our faces into the dirt & kick our arses over and again until till they bleed..

Good for them.  Poetic justice.