Climate Change,

[PeanutButter]

39 minutes ago, onlooker said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-10-22/india-wants-compensation-for-climate-damages-caused-by-rich-nations

Well that didn't take long did it?

Well done. So there’s no climate change, it’s all an Indian hoax. How much have they got so far?

[onlooker]

1 minute ago, PeanutButter said:

Well done. So there’s no climate change, it’s all an Indian hoax. How much have they got so far?

I didn't say it was a hoax. You asked for examples of countries which will claim to be suffering as a result of the Western (and eastern) World's addiction to carbon energy sources, and who will be asking for compensation. Perhaps the Indians could ask the Chinese for money.

[byron78]

I absolutely agree countries should (and will) sue the big petro states as this all gets worse and worse.

I'd expect us to do it if the UK was near the equator (and we weren't already a very small part of the problem).

But I hope to God the Saudis and Russian get the crap sued out of them tbh.

[PeanutButter]

6 minutes ago, onlooker said:

I didn't say it was a hoax. You asked for examples of countries which will claim to be suffering as a result of the Western (and eastern) World's addiction to carbon energy sources, and who will be asking for compensation. Perhaps the Indians could ask the Chinese for money.

China is asking for money https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/climate-finance-china-india-11636039142

 

[kzb]

1 hour ago, PeanutButter said:

China is asking for money https://www.wsj.com/amp/articles/climate-finance-china-india-11636039142

 

Welcome to your world.  This is the future you wish on us.  China demanding cash off us.

[kzb]

1 hour ago, PeanutButter said:

Well done. So there’s no climate change, it’s all an Indian hoax. How much have they got so far?

No well done to you and your ilk. 

You fall for the false stories about unprecedented heat, failing to realise it is all a play for cash.

[Staffsknot]

All the people saying you can't sue over climate change...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/fossil-fuel-companies-are-suing-governments-across-the-world-for-more-than-18bn-12409573

Apparently you can sue if you are a multinational being asked to stop so why not.

[Si1]

4 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

All the people saying you can't sue over climate change...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/fossil-fuel-companies-are-suing-governments-across-the-world-for-more-than-18bn-12409573

Apparently you can sue if you are a multinational being asked to stop so why not.

Strangely enough, my sis in law, who works for a multinational, a few months back had a bee in her bonnet about climate change and announced to all the world she will grow a vegetable garden to combat climate change.

This week she has proudly announced to her connections on Facebook her two foreign holiday destinations with her family this year. Greece and Morocco 

I put a cheeky link to her planet-saving vegetable garden in the comments (of her holiday bragging post) asking how her climate change fight is going. She said she genuinely thought I had accidentally put it in the wrong thread , it was going great thanks anyway.

So there you go.

Edited May 30, 2022 by Si1

[onlooker]

27 minutes ago, Si1 said:

Strangely enough, my sis in law, who works for a multinational, a few months back had a bee in her bonnet about climate change and announced to all the world she will grow a vegetable garden to combat climate change.

This week she has proudly announced to her connections on Facebook her two foreign holiday destinations with her family this year. Greece and Morocco 

I put a cheeky link to her planet-saving vegetable garden in the comments (of her holiday bragging post) asking how her climate change fight is going. She said she genuinely thought I had accidentally put it in the wrong thread , it was going great thanks anyway.

So there you go.

Labour politicians can be just as hypocritical.

https://order-order.com/2022/05/30/mayor-of-bristol-flies-4000-miles-to-lecture-about-climate-crisis/

The Labour Mayor of Bristol Marvin Rees, who was the first city mayor brave enough to declare a climate crisis in the UK, has fulfilled his moral duty to save the planet by hopping on a nine hour flight to Canada and lecturing his fellow political leaders on the dangers of pumping carbon into the atmosphere.

[onlooker]

5 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

All the people saying you can't sue over climate change...

https://www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/fossil-fuel-companies-are-suing-governments-across-the-world-for-more-than-18bn-12409573

Apparently you can sue if you are a multinational being asked to stop so why not.

Countries should stand by their contractual obligations. Unless they are imposing a retrospective windfall tax, of course.

[Staffsknot]

6 hours ago, onlooker said:

Countries should stand by their contractual obligations. Unless they are imposing a retrospective windfall tax, of course.

You do realise that means you just gave up any decision making to corporations. 

Brexit effectively was a change in the Ts & Cs and made companies less profitable. Remember Johnson verbally agreed there would be no checks or paperwork 😊

[Staffsknot]

7 hours ago, Si1 said:

Strangely enough, my sis in law, who works for a multinational, a few months back had a bee in her bonnet about climate change and announced to all the world she will grow a vegetable garden to combat climate change.

This week she has proudly announced to her connections on Facebook her two foreign holiday destinations with her family this year. Greece and Morocco 

I put a cheeky link to her planet-saving vegetable garden in the comments (of her holiday bragging post) asking how her climate change fight is going. She said she genuinely thought I had accidentally put it in the wrong thread , it was going great thanks anyway.

So there you go.

Not sure how this ties in with what I wrote but

Bit of a moot point on travel as the plane travels route whether they are full or not. Arguably full is better as more efficient.

Ghost flights during Covid proved that, unless we ban all flights.

Besides last time someone put their money where their mouth was and sailed instead of flying she was dismissed as a stunt / no nothing / crisis actor / stupid child by many on here.

[onlooker]

10 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

You do realise that means you just gave up any decision making to corporations. 

Brexit effectively was a change in the Ts & Cs and made companies less profitable. Remember Johnson verbally agreed there would be no checks or paperwork 😊

I'm sure if they can point to a clause in a contract by which they have lost out, they will be quick to reach for their lawyers.

[PeanutButter]

It’s easy to point out that any efforts people do won’t make a difference.

Buying stuff won’t make a difference. Having way fewer people on the planet, that might make a difference. People don’t like to hear that part.

[Saving For a Space Ship]

some eco changes to Building regs next month ..

New Building Regulations Come Into Force June 2022   https://improve-magazine.co.uk/new-building-regulations/

[Staffsknot]

11 hours ago, onlooker said:

I'm sure if they can point to a clause in a contract by which they have lost out, they will be quick to reach for their lawyers.

You didn't read the article did you?

They are suing because a nation changed their policy not due to a change in a signed contract. The Dutch are being sued because they are phasing out coal and that devalues RWEs investments in infrastructure. There was no deal between RWE and Dutch Gov that says they are a supplier until 2030, its the change in policy.

Just one example

 

[Saving For a Space Ship]

Sunak’s UK oil subsidy could have insulated 2m homes, says thinktank

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/may/31/sunak-uk-oil-subsidy-could-have-insulated-2m-homes-says-thinktank

[Si1]

13 hours ago, Staffsknot said:

Not sure how this ties in with what I wrote but

Bit of a moot point on travel as the plane travels route whether they are full or not. Arguably full is better as more efficient.

Ghost flights during Covid proved that, unless we ban all flights.

Besides last time someone put their money where their mouth was and sailed instead of flying she was dismissed as a stunt / no nothing / crisis actor / stupid child by many on here.

The problem for us all, including Greta, is that it's very very very hard to actually reduce your net carbon footprint, and if you are going to tell other people how it's done, which is fair enough, then your argument becomes moot if it's too difficult to do yourself. Emma Thompson attending ER demos travelling in a first class BA private suite. Greta having her ship hands flown in for her carbon fibre yacht that has a large carbon footprint for being built. More ER protestors getting a McDonald's breakfast before a day of economic disruption. Will I Am chartering a helicopter to highlight climate change (!). In fairness Leo Di Caprio has stopped using private jets and now apparently attends climate events by normal airlines which is more sensible.

The thing is, you're never going to persuade people to take genuine privations to reduce their climate footprint if you can't show it's doable yourself. If someone is going to preach and virtue signal about climate change and then have a massive and transparent footprint elsewhere (which air travel is, it's massive, no current way around this short of FLYING A LOT LESS) without giving two sh#ts then 99% of people will ignore it. That's just how it is. Mitigating climate change is hard. It won't be achieved without the west taking a big hit to their living standards, which they'll refuse to do in real terms imho, although I wish they would.

Because without that then China, India etc won't realistically engage in the process either.

 

[onlooker]

1 hour ago, Staffsknot said:

You didn't read the article did you?

They are suing because a nation changed their policy not due to a change in a signed contract. The Dutch are being sued because they are phasing out coal and that devalues RWEs investments in infrastructure. There was no deal between RWE and Dutch Gov that says they are a supplier until 2030, its the change in policy.

Just one example

 

I am not a lawyer, but I have been involved in some business/environmental/government issues. A contract assumes certain facts, and for damages to be awarded in a case actual losses must have been incurred. e.g. If a country licences an area for offshore oil exploration to a company which then spends say $100 million exploring that area under the terms of the contract, and then the country changes the law so that offshore production is no longer allowed, then the company has incurred a genuine loss which it is entitled to recover.

[zugzwang]

59 minutes ago, Si1 said:

The problem for us all, including Greta, is that it's very very very hard to actually reduce your net carbon footprint, and if you are going to tell other people how it's done, which is fair enough, then your argument becomes moot if it's too difficult to do yourself. Emma Thompson attending ER demos travelling in a first class BA private suite. Greta having her ship hands flown in for her carbon fibre yacht that has a large carbon footprint for being built. More ER protestors getting a McDonald's breakfast before a day of economic disruption. Will I Am chartering a helicopter to highlight climate change (!). In fairness Leo Di Caprio has stopped using private jets and now apparently attends climate events by normal airlines which is more sensible.

The thing is, you're never going to persuade people to take genuine privations to reduce their climate footprint if you can't show it's doable yourself. If someone is going to preach and virtue signal about climate change and then have a massive and transparent footprint elsewhere (which air travel is, it's massive, no current way around this short of FLYING A LOT LESS) without giving two sh#ts then 99% of people will ignore it. That's just how it is. Mitigating climate change is hard. It won't be achieved without the west taking a big hit to their living standards, which they'll refuse to do in real terms imho, although I wish they would.

Because without that then China, India etc won't realistically engage in the process either.

 

Sunak spent £10,000 on a helicopter flight to some dinner event in Wales last week.

Anyone ever enquire about the carbon footprint of his ten houses?

[Si1]

19 minutes ago, zugzwang said:

Sunak spent £10,000 on a helicopter flight to some dinner event in Wales last week.

Anyone ever enquire about the carbon footprint of his ten houses?

Big or multiple houses is another one. Additional house space has a carbon footprint because more space to heat/air condition/maintain, and also because it hogs space that could be a natural carbon absorbing ecosystem instead. More remote housing has additional carbon footprint because of greater travel costs - extra commuting, extra travel to services like pub, etc. Having to drive a mile or more just to get milk.

A second house in Dartmoor does not make you green, neither does owning a landrover. Nor does living in a converted draughty expensive to heat barn or farmhouse.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Si1

[PeanutButter]

1 hour ago, zugzwang said:

Sunak spent £10,000 on a helicopter flight to some dinner event in Wales last week.

Anyone ever enquire about the carbon footprint of his ten houses?

Perhaps all MPs should have a carbon footprint (a term invented by the fossil fuel PR industry) ranking. 

7 kids Boris may struggle

[Staffsknot]

3 hours ago, onlooker said:

I am not a lawyer, but I have been involved in some business/environmental/government issues. A contract assumes certain facts, and for damages to be awarded in a case actual losses must have been incurred. e.g. If a country licences an area for offshore oil exploration to a company which then spends say $100 million exploring that area under the terms of the contract, and then the country changes the law so that offshore production is no longer allowed, then the company has incurred a genuine loss which it is entitled to recover.

Whoa boy

Read the article - potential future earnings... I mean its not like its written into lots of Treaties. Italy left said Energy Treaty in 2016 but is being sued as there's a 20 year grace period for instance.

As say read the report they are projecting and demanding cash for change in policy. The terms are in loads of treaties now meaning you effectively cannot change any policy...

[Staffsknot]

3 hours ago, Si1 said:

The problem for us all, including Greta, is that it's very very very hard to actually reduce your net carbon footprint, and if you are going to tell other people how it's done, which is fair enough, then your argument becomes moot if it's too difficult to do yourself. Emma Thompson attending ER demos travelling in a first class BA private suite. Greta having her ship hands flown in for her carbon fibre yacht that has a large carbon footprint for being built. More ER protestors getting a McDonald's breakfast before a day of economic disruption. Will I Am chartering a helicopter to highlight climate change (!). In fairness Leo Di Caprio has stopped using private jets and now apparently attends climate events by normal airlines which is more sensible.

The thing is, you're never going to persuade people to take genuine privations to reduce their climate footprint if you can't show it's doable yourself. If someone is going to preach and virtue signal about climate change and then have a massive and transparent footprint elsewhere (which air travel is, it's massive, no current way around this short of FLYING A LOT LESS) without giving two sh#ts then 99% of people will ignore it. That's just how it is. Mitigating climate change is hard. It won't be achieved without the west taking a big hit to their living standards, which they'll refuse to do in real terms imho, although I wish they would.

Because without that then China, India etc won't realistically engage in the process either.

 

This is one of those missives that always comes up to avoid doing anything. Scrutiny to nth degree of anyone who dares say or do anything. Its a tried and trusted tactic to get people looking here instead of there.

[Si1]

44 minutes ago, Staffsknot said:

This is one of those missives that always comes up to avoid doing anything. Scrutiny to nth degree of anyone who dares say or do anything. Its a tried and trusted tactic to get people looking here instead of there.

I hope that's not the case. I think ER are on the right lines but they need to be equally ruthless with their own members to stay consistent.

Hipocrisy is worse than nothing, it is negative.

Edit to add - if I'm right, and if human apathy is overwhelming enough, then maybe the HSBC guy was right - apathy may render real CC mitigation overwhelmingly expensive/impractical, so adaptation becomes the only affordable/practical option.

Disclaimer - this is me playing devil's advocate, I do think we should promote and push for mitigation measures, but pretending they aren't very very hard will not work.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Si1