Obese Patients And Smokers Banned From Routine Surgery In 'most Severe Ever' Rationing In The Nhs

[chronyx]

The smokers, well the tax they've paid on ciggies means they have paid MORE to the NHS over their lifetime so a ban is out of order IMO and could lead to riots.

Npt scary, they'll gas out in 10 minutes or have to interrupt proceedings to slope off somewhere every hour

[assetrichcashpoor]

This could be ok but there will be problems. In my younger days I had a BMI of over 30 but a very low body fat percentage. It would have been incorrect to class me as obese. Now I'm older and lot unhealthier my BMI is under 30 but my body fat percentage has increased. According to one unreliable measure I'm now healthier than I used to be which in reality no one would agree with.

[John51]

Okay, but there are reasons why people eat unhealthily. Stick people in a stressful and unpleasant built environment, take away meaningful employment and make them dependent on handouts, then rig the electoral system so it ignores them and guess what? They stuff themselves with unhealthy comfort food, fags, booze and drugs to dull the pain. You could do the same experiment with any mammal in a cage and get the same result.

It has been done with lab rats. The US used to have an anti drug TV ad that showed a rat in a cage with 2 options for water, one being plain water and the other laced with either heroin or cocaine. The rat ended up a junkie.

Then some researchers tried the experiment again but this time they had a group of rats with adequate living space and enough rat type entertainment to keep them amused. The rats would try the drug laced water then leave it alone and only drink the regular water.

[oracle]

I think the NHS makes people more likely to neglect their health. Do what ever to their bodys and expect the NHS to put them back together.

I'd like a system with more personal responsibility.

They still giving 50 quid amazon vouchers to obese people on the NHS to loose weight?

it is going down the nietzche path, like the rest of the country(actually a bit too close to classical fascism for comfort)

like we'll import all of these neer do wells to make you fight for living space and toughen you up a bit, only the strongest will survive,and enter into our "new society/paradise with 72 bottles of extra virgin/valhalla with 72 bottles of jaegermeister etc etc", type b0llocks.

the strange thing is, the PTB actually think they are doing everybody a service by employing such tactics.

Edited September 4, 2016 by oracle

[FrankCostanza]

Not sure what the complaints are for here.

Fact : By far the largest two govt expenditures are on Health and Welfare payments.

To balance the budget you need to cut both.

Socialised healthcare has continually shown that it is unsustainable in the long term, imagine how much less taxes people would need to pay if the government did not fund the health system.This money could be used for healthier food and people would pay more attention to eating healthier as they knew they'd be on the hook for health costs down the line.

[FrankCostanza]

Govt funded health system = Govt Telling you what to eat, what to drink, don't smoke etc.Increased taxes on these "sins".

Total 1984 society where govt is in control and eventually becomes totalitarian.

[winkie]

So down to risk....will not be insured for certain health risks when travelling to certain places....

[stuckmojo]

I agree.

And think how much we could spend on health if having basic shelter wasn't so expensive!

A properly run health service is never going to be cheap, and I'd rather we spent a lot more on it, and a lot lot less on bloody housing which let's face it - doesn't actually add any value to the economy. Health DOES add great value to the economy. I don't just mean a service that treats the symptoms, but a health revolution in the UK that helps prevent the causes. And I also don't mean a crappy government ad campaign to get people cycling. I mean a grassroots revolution that permeates every aspect of our working day. Make walking and cycling a lot easier. With cheaper housing, people can work within 5 or 6 miles of work at most (possible). We should divert so much money to such a health drive - get people happy and healthy and in turn they are more likely to contribute positively to society.

It all sounds idealistic, but it only sounds idealistic because of the mess we have now that bases everything on high house prices and mass uncontrolled immigration (which in turn puts extra stress on the NHS).

Fantastic post, I was just about to write something similar.

Healthcare should always be seen as a failure of wellbeing management, A bit like we have a fire alarm and car insurance. The state should provide it for free, but the point is that personal responsibility and pride of wellbeing should be everyone's priority.

There should be a total revolution of how we look at the whole picture.

[Riedquat]

This could be ok but there will be problems. In my younger days I had a BMI of over 30 but a very low body fat percentage. It would have been incorrect to class me as obese. Now I'm older and lot unhealthier my BMI is under 30 but my body fat percentage has increased. According to one unreliable measure I'm now healthier than I used to be which in reality no one would agree with.

BMI is a pretty bad measure. I'm only just under 30 and whilst I'm definitely overweight I'm certainly not obese - but I am tall, and AIUI the general opinion is that BMI gives too high a figure for tall people and too low for short ones (and is completely inaccurate if you've got lots of muscle, which doesn't apply to me). To refuse treatment on such an inaccurate, arbitrary measurement is not a good idea, even though I'm not completely against the general idea.

Good luck in making people healthier in general though, when so much effort goes into not having to do anything physical, to the point where having to lift a finger is regarded as an unacceptable hardship.

Edited September 5, 2016 by Riedquat

[Assume The Opposite]

Tip toeing people into accepting rationing of services towards full privatisation?

Next week: elderly, disabled, poor?

If Hunt hadn't wrote a book about privatising our NHS & education along with Gove I'd assume this was a rational idea.

Stevens is ex private sector and will obviously have a interest in maintaining a publicly funded healthcare system. Obviously.

[SpectrumFX]

Tip toeing people into accepting rationing of services towards full privatisation?

Next week: elderly, disabled, poor?

If Hunt hadn't wrote a book about privatising our NHS & education along with Gove I'd assume this was a rational idea.

Stevens is ex private sector and will obviously have a interest in maintaining a publicly funded healthcare system. Obviously.

The obvious next step is "ill"

Free health care cradle to grave, unless you ever actually need it, in which case you can't have it. In the meantime do as your told and keep paying for it.

Edited September 5, 2016 by SpectrumFX

[porca misèria]

The obvious next step is "ill"

Free health care cradle to grave, unless you ever actually need it, in which case you can't have it. In the meantime do as your told and keep paying for it.

As happened to me end-October 2007, first time in my life I thought I had an urgent need? NHS wouldn't see me at all. Or rather, would give me an appointment two and a half weeks later. By that time I'd been reassured, I was getting back to normal.

When I had similar symptoms in March 2015, they saw me on the day I phoned, and admitted me as an emergency and diagnosed a mini-stroke. Though only after people had persuaded me to see the quack: having had the symptoms before, I was much less alarmed by them, and had no expectations of the NHS.

What a difference "austerity" makes to how they treat a patient!

[DeepLurker]

The obvious next step is "ill"

Free health care cradle to grave, unless you ever actually need it, in which case you can't have it. In the meantime do as your told and keep paying for it.

It's not the 'next step', it's right here right now...

When you call a GP and get given an appointment in 10 days time (yes it's happened to me), or you have to wait 6 months for a routine operation... then it's pretty clear that the NHS is not there when you need it. But you're still paying for it.

[SirGaz]

Only ten days, thats not 'bad', last time I called my GP's surgery it was three weeks for an appointment.

When I called to make an appointment with the nurse to have dressings changed post surgery it was a total no go, the two nurses were both on holiday at the same time and there wasn't any available appointments for the foreseeable...I had to wait in the walk in clinic, which bizarrely starts the day (at 8am) with a two hour waiting time.

[porca misèria]

It's not the 'next step', it's right here right now...

When you call a GP and get given an appointment in 10 days time (yes it's happened to me), or you have to wait 6 months for a routine operation... then it's pretty clear that the NHS is not there when you need it. But you're still paying for it.

Ten days? Luxury! See the post immediately before yours ...

[ccc]

Saw something on the news yesterday - BMA I think it was saying we need to be quick to let all the EU nationals working in the NHS know they are 'welcome' to stay as it wouldn't survive without them.

The facts it survived before they arrived en masse - and the rise in population due to the 5 million or so EE now living in the UK may have something to do with the increased strain on it - clearly passed them by.

[Riedquat]

Saw something on the news yesterday - BMA I think it was saying we need to be quick to let all the EU nationals working in the NHS know they are 'welcome' to stay as it wouldn't survive without them.

The facts it survived before they arrived en masse - and the rise in population due to the 5 million or so EE now living in the UK may have something to do with the increased strain on it - clearly passed them by.

A sudden adjustment if they all left would leave it struggling badly, but that merely means any adjustment can't be sudden.

This is based on my lack of understanding of the world. If I understood the world I'd realise why we need more people to come in, bringing spinning plates with them, to help keep the plates spinning. The bit I don't understand is why we need lots of spinning plates.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Riedquat

[ccc]

A sudden adjustment if they all left would leave it struggling badly, but that merely means any adjustment can't be sudden.

This is based on my lack of understanding of the world. If I understood the world I'd realise why we need more people to come in, bringing spinning plates with them, to help keep the plates spinning. The bit I don't understand is why we need lots of spinning plates.

There is a very good chance the reduction of potential patients by 5 million overnight - would have a balancing affect on it 'struggling badly'.

[Riedquat]

There is a very good chance the reduction of potential patients by 5 million overnight - would have a balancing affect on it 'struggling badly'.

No, because it's not simply about numbers, it's about the structure and distribution of expertise. Remove a lot of people overnight and even if the workload afterwards is such that the remaining ones should be able to manage fine things will still be chaos for a while.

That isn't an argument for not making the changes at all, just for doing them in a way that doesn't cause more trouble in the short term than needs be. I'm all for taking the long term view but there's no need to make the short term problems awkward for the sake of it.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Riedquat

[porca misèria]

Saw something on the news yesterday - BMA I think it was saying we need to be quick to let all the EU nationals working in the NHS know they are 'welcome' to stay as it wouldn't survive without them.

The facts it survived before they arrived en masse - and the rise in population due to the 5 million or so EE now living in the UK may have something to do with the increased strain on it - clearly passed them by.

Maybe Brit pensioners getting the boot from France and Spain could be the straw that breaks the NHS's back?

It survived on immigrants in the old days, too. The comedians were allowed to send it up a bit:

Edited September 8, 2016 by porca misèria

[Democorruptcy]

I've noticed there always seems to be 2 people on every department's reception desk in hospitals. Does the second person serve any other purpose, than to keep the first one awake by chatting to them?

[ccc]

No, because it's not simply about numbers, it's about the structure and distribution of expertise. Remove a lot of people overnight and even if the workload afterwards is such that the remaining ones should be able to manage fine things will still be chaos for a while.

That isn't an argument for not making the changes at all, just for doing them in a way that doesn't cause more trouble in the short term than needs be. I'm all for taking the long term view but there's no need to make the short term problems awkward for the sake of it.

I'm just talking in theory . It would never happen overnight.

Really annoys me when I am told our countries health service could not cope without overseas workers doing the deed.

Think about it - it's simply saying we can't look after ourselves.

Pathetic.

[This time]

I've noticed there always seems to be 2 people on every department's reception desk in hospitals. Does the second person serve any other purpose, than to keep the first one awake by chatting to them?

They'll be doing admin work too. Putting two people on reception means you don't have to find a desk for someone elsewhere and they can cover each other for breaks and running errands. Plus you'd go insane sitting on reception by yourself all day.

[SarahBell]

Only ten days, thats not 'bad', last time I called my GP's surgery it was three weeks for an appointment.

When I called to make an appointment with the nurse to have dressings changed post surgery it was a total no go, the two nurses were both on holiday at the same time and there wasn't any available appointments for the foreseeable...I had to wait in the walk in clinic, which bizarrely starts the day (at 8am) with a two hour waiting time.

Ours you get told to ring back after 2pm and then at 2pm you get told to ring back tomorrow morning. With a message to go to the walk in centre if you need a doctor.

[Errol]

I've noticed there always seems to be 2 people on every department's reception desk in hospitals. Does the second person serve any other purpose, than to keep the first one awake by chatting to them?

Presumably you need two to cover breaks - toilet, coffee, lunch etc etc.