Rent Rise Forces Pub Closure In West London

[geezer466]

snipped....

But I do not know whether this form of immigration alone is enough to close any pubs. And for the pub in question, it clearly had nothing to do with it where the desire is to convert the pub into housing and the rent figure had been plucked from the site to demonstrate that they pub is not financially viable.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11283995/The-real-reasons-for-the-tragic-demise-of-the-British-pub-industry.html

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11370963/Somali-immigrants-cause-pub-closures-says-minister.html

Pubs are closing as a result of Somali immigrants arriving in Britain, a Government minister has said.

Stephen Williams, the Liberal Democrat communities minister, told the House of Commons that new waves of immigration replacing the “white working class” had led to the pub trade evaporating in some parts of the country.

His comments came as the Government unveiled new plans to protect pubs which are valuable to local communities.

The measures will stop pubs which meet the criteria from being demolished or converted for other uses, such as housing.

Probably mostly felt in those parts of London where these communities settled.

But there is no denying that land values and potential yields as housing as opposed to pubs has a huge part to play....

[knock out johnny]

Trouble is the defacto head of the EU does favour unlimited immigration into the block of just the sort of people you describe. In fact she encourages it, invites them even.

Read a report last week which suggests Turkey is cherry picking the best and skilled and keeping them in the Turkish economy. The unskilled and A Level goat herders are being put on the boats and pointed in the direction of the Greek Islands.

In due course probably half a decade these people will also be free to move about the EU most will not have bothered to learn English although German is I believe a requirement of their citizenship.

We already have large ghetto's in the UK where the majority do not speak and cannot be bothered to learn English and have no interest in integrating. I don't want any more which is why I voted BREXIT.

Canada already cherry picked the best syrians about a year ago

Merkel is toast

and when she mentioned her open door policy, the countries they had to pass through to get to germany closed their borders

I loathe merkel, and can't wait to see her gone, she has done incredible damage to germany

The issue is not europe but t0sser domestic politicians including our own who have done nothing to address people's concerns and now it's reached a head

I just see a LOT of economic pain ahead - maybe it's because I'm a pessimist - I sincerely hope I'm wrong

[darwin]

It's supermarkets that close pubs; same as it's supermarkets that close petrol stations.

In the Sainsbury's near me they sell alcohol that is cheaper than water. I kid you not.

[AvoidDebt]

Supermarket Express if not property. 250k per annum for a prime advertising spot in Maida Vale is ridiculously cheap. That's how they justify running so many of these at a loss.

[Ah-so]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/11283995/The-real-reasons-for-the-tragic-demise-of-the-British-pub-industry.html

and

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/11370963/Somali-immigrants-cause-pub-closures-says-minister.html

Probably mostly felt in those parts of London where these communities settled.

But there is no denying that land values and potential yields as housing as opposed to pubs has a huge part to play....

Undoubtedly concentrated immigration from non-drinking areas results in lower demand for pubs in those parts. This is simply a reflection of supply and demand.

Elsewhere we have the problem of popular, established pubs being closed because someone had realised the value of converting to a house or flats. It is another sad side effect of our property bubble.

[Kurt Barlow]

Does anyone know who the landlord is?

I was wondering this. Punch are the worst of the lot closely followed by Greene King and Enterprise. Anyone who takes out a tenancy with these pirates needs to sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

Coincidentally when I was made redundant in late 2008 from a Middle Management EH job and I did some contract inspections in the Suffolk area. Half the places I inspected were GK pubs under temporary management. Same story over - pub landlords took the Xmas takings and did a runner with it as making a living from a GK tenancy was impossible. .

[knock out johnny]

As I mentioned, data is scarce so the evidence is somewhat anecdotal. I also do not think it is particularly widespread, but you mentioned whether there could be a link between EU immigration from Germany and pubs closing.

In the UK there is the Ahmadiyya Muslim community - persecuted as a heresy in its home of Pakistan. Germany had traditionally been very sympathetic to their asylum claims so a large portion of this group have ultimately come to the UK via Germany. I know this because of the school where I am a governor in South London.

I wouldn't be surprised if the big Algerian population around Finsbury Park has a large number of French nationals among them.

We rightly grant asylum to citizens fleeing persecution and in time citizenship, but when we do, it is fair to recognise that they have the freedom to settle all over the UK.

But I do not know whether this form of immigration alone is enough to close any pubs. And for the pub in question, it clearly had nothing to do with it where the desire is to convert the pub into housing and the rent figure had been plucked from the site to demonstrate that they pub is not financially viable.

Thanks for responding

45,000 ahmadiyya in germany and 35,000 in uk - those numbers are miniscule, so I don't buy it - what % of children in your school are ahmadiyya

I've no idea how may french algerians are around finsbury park, I know the pubs around there do a roaring trade (arsenal just up the road)

The east end is where the problem is and that's 2nd and 3rd generation bangladeshi, the indigenous brits moved out to barking/dagenham years ago - although somewhat ironically, hipster BOMAD movement into the area (with it's HPI) is seeing bars and clubs opening (I just miss proper spit and sawdust boozers)

[Guest]

knock out johny, you're a first order thinker. Your entire argument seems to be about your own freedom of movement but not the consequences of this when others do it, in the other direction.

This is more far more serious than the degree to which you can understand it.

Put aside your pettiness and do a reversal test, you are arguing for the status quo. If freedom of movement did not exist today between UK and Europe, would you introduce it today? Have a look at the unemployment figures and demographics of other European countries. It might surprise you that migration out of the UK would be far lower than you think...

Edited August 7, 2016 by phantominvestor

[Motor_Blade]

I was wondering this. Punch are the worst of the lot closely followed by Greene King and Enterprise. Anyone who takes out a tenancy with these pirates needs to sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

Coincidentally when I was made redundant in late 2008 from a Middle Management EH job and I did some contract inspections in the Suffolk area. Half the places I inspected were GK pubs under temporary management. Same story over - pub landlords took the Xmas takings and did a runner with it as making a living from a GK tenancy was impossible. .

Greed is well on its way to killing off the pub trade in the UK. Greed from owners/landlords who are trying to screw as much money out of pubs in rent & beer sales (the latter in the case of tied houses such as Punch or GK) without regard to the ability of the business to support these & greed from the supermarkets trying to increase their sales with aggressive discounting on drink sales. You can buy a 4 pack of beer from the supermarket for the price of a pint in the pub & in those sort of circumstances is it any wonder the great British beer drinking public are deserting pubs in droves?

I remember chatting to a guy I got to know on another forum a few years ago, he worked as a pub landlord for years (free house in his case) and he completely echoed your points re Punch and GK - anyone going into business with them had no chance whatsoever as they were only interested in screwing as much short term profit out of their tenants, if one failed it didn't matter to them as there were plenty of other idiots willing to risk their money.

[Ah-so]

Thanks for responding

45,000 ahmadiyya in germany and 35,000 in uk - those numbers are miniscule, so I don't buy it - what % of children in your school are ahmadiyya

I've no idea how may french algerians are around finsbury park, I know the pubs around there do a roaring trade (arsenal just up the road)

The east end is where the problem is and that's 2nd and 3rd generation bangladeshi, the indigenous brits moved out to barking/dagenham years ago - although somewhat ironically, hipster BOMAD movement into the area (with it's HPI) is seeing bars and clubs opening (I just miss proper spit and sawdust boozers)

The 35,000 in the UK are somewhat concentrated in an around the South London - they have a mosque that holds up to 10,000 worshippers, and that is a great pull for the Ahmadis. I think that the school where I am a governor might be about 30%+ Ahmadi.

Again anecdotal, we have some "German" friends - actually Iraqi Christians and Sri Lankan Christians who arrived in Britain via Germany. Pubs are not the places that they would choose to spend time in - firstly I do not think that they drink much but also that they are not places that are a natural cultural fit for them.

[Ah-so]

Greed is well on its way to killing off the pub trade in the UK. Greed from owners/landlords who are trying to screw as much money out of pubs in rent & beer sales (the latter in the case of tied houses such as Punch or GK) without regard to the ability of the business to support these & greed from the supermarkets trying to increase their sales with aggressive discounting on drink sales. You can buy a 4 pack of beer from the supermarket for the price of a pint in the pub & in those sort of circumstances is it any wonder the great British beer drinking public are deserting pubs in droves?

I remember chatting to a guy I got to know on another forum a few years ago, he worked as a pub landlord for years (free house in his case) and he completely echoed your points re Punch and GK - anyone going into business with them had no chance whatsoever as they were only interested in screwing as much short term profit out of their tenants, if one failed it didn't matter to them as there were plenty of other idiots willing to risk their money.

The Pubcos were a disastrous compromise resulting from the breakup of the brewery-owned pubs. Punch and Enterprise Inns are not pub owners but heavily indebted real estate companies that have an extraordinary power to charge pubs well over the going rate for beer in exchange for modest rents. They bleed the landlords dry and then seek a new host. The success of a freehouse chain Weatherspoons shows how far this overcharging goes - beer tends to be £1 or more cheaper than elsewhere.

A freehouse is the only way to make money in the pub trade.

[Motor_Blade]

The Pubcos were a disastrous compromise resulting from the breakup of the brewery-owned pubs. Punch and Enterprise Inns are not pub owners but heavily indebted real estate companies that have an extraordinary power to charge pubs well over the going rate for beer in exchange for modest rents. They bleed the landlords dry and then seek a new host. The success of a freehouse chain Weatherspoons shows how far this overcharging goes - beer tends to be £1 or more cheaper than elsewhere.

A freehouse is the only way to make money in the pub trade.

Completely agree, if the price is right - people will come & you have a chance at a viable business. I'd guess the food at Wetherspoons (also sensibly priced) is a factor in the success of their business model.

[Bora Horza]

I think mass immigration is mistake in the long-run but I think we have to be careful that we don't start blaming it for everything.

In the mid-90s I did an apprenticeship. I worked 4 days, college 1 day a week. After transport costs I would have been able to afford ~43 pints of beer at the local pub (if I'd been stupid enough to drink that many!).

2013ish I saw the same apprenticeship, with the same company. 5 days work, 2 evenings at college. After transport costs (which have gone up massively) they'd be able to afford 24 pints of beer at the same local pub.

In 1990s I had the time and money to visit the pub frequently, I wouldn't be able to do that in 2013ish. I realise the above situation (apprenticeship) isn't that common but working longer hours for less money is.

[stuckmojo]

Freehouses could do well, especially now that it seems real ale is back in fashion.

A pub tenancy with a brewery/heineken/whatever is pure lunacy. It's guaranteed to fail and possibly bankrupt the tenant within 12 months.

I make a point never to drink in any of those pubs. Only free houses for me. (and it seems they are thriving in the North)

[Crumbless]

Just think what a thriving industry it would be if they could buy the building for a 2-3 hundred grand which is all that it should cost, and no regulation from the councils/govt.

But instead we get the usual parasites taking money from the productive.

[knock out johnny]

I don't know about London but change of use from a pub to domestic isn't easy to get approved by the planners round this way. A local pub went to appeal and only got it approved after the landlord made every effort to get a tenant in; the site just wasn't suitable for a pub. No car park no garden tiny kitchen and was derelict.

This one in London won't be easy to do...

Surely it falls under permitted development (as long as not listed)

[Kurt Barlow]

Greed is well on its way to killing off the pub trade in the UK. Greed from owners/landlords who are trying to screw as much money out of pubs in rent & beer sales (the latter in the case of tied houses such as Punch or GK) without regard to the ability of the business to support these & greed from the supermarkets trying to increase their sales with aggressive discounting on drink sales. You can buy a 4 pack of beer from the supermarket for the price of a pint in the pub & in those sort of circumstances is it any wonder the great British beer drinking public are deserting pubs in droves?

I remember chatting to a guy I got to know on another forum a few years ago, he worked as a pub landlord for years (free house in his case) and he completely echoed your points re Punch and GK - anyone going into business with them had no chance whatsoever as they were only interested in screwing as much short term profit out of their tenants, if one failed it didn't matter to them as there were plenty of other idiots willing to risk their money.

I am usually back in the Uk for 3-4 weeks per year. I try and avoid the GK / Enterprise / Punch shytehouses with their lovingly prepared microwave reheats. A local freehouse near to my parents has a nice range of beers and good food for only a few pounds more.

RE: Mugs, my dimwit brother sunk and lost about 30K in a Punch Tavern in 2013.

[Ah-so]

Surely it falls under permitted development (as long as not listed)

It is not that easy - it needs to be applied for and accepted. Quite a number of such applications have been refused.

However, I think that pubs have the same property type usage as restaurants and cafes so the pub can be changed to a coffee shop and the upstairs converted to flats.

[knock out johnny]

It is not that easy - it needs to be applied for and accepted. Quite a number of such applications have been refused.

However, I think that pubs have the same property type usage as restaurants and cafes so the pub can be changed to a coffee shop and the upstairs converted to flats.

I though the whole point of permitted development is that you weren't at the mercy of the council to say 'no'. If you met the criteria/conditions it was rubber-stamped, but I've never done one so I bow to your knowledge

A3 usage are restaurants and some cafes, A4 pubs, bars, restaurants with booze. A5 is takeaway food

Once you get a usage you can automatically go down to a lower one i.e. A4 to A2 without planning

Edited August 7, 2016 by knock out johnny

[Motor_Blade]

I am usually back in the Uk for 3-4 weeks per year. I try and avoid the GK / Enterprise / Punch shytehouses with their lovingly prepared microwave reheats. A local freehouse near to my parents has a nice range of beers and good food for only a few pounds more.

RE: Mugs, my dimwit brother sunk and lost about 30K in a Punch Tavern in 2013.

Ouch, a lesson learned I guess - that's the trouble with these outfits, they play on the fact that the world is full of people who hate the rat race & want to work for themselves and its far too easy to let the heart rule the head.

[Trampa501]

This pub - if planning permission prevents the pub being closed.... it may be the landlord has a new tenant in mind who will convert the place into a backpacker pub. The location is a bit grimy (where south Kilburn meets Harrow Road), but it's not far from Maida Vale or even Portobello Road. Could be a place tourists love to spend 15 quid a night to share a dorm with 12 others... no accounting for taste...

[thehowler]

Maybe pubs need to adapt to the changing demographic and cultural diversity of the UK, instead of trading on some fake nostalgia for the great British boozer, whatever that was. There are some independents in my patch that do their own food, decent music and events and they seem busy. But the pint prices are just revolting. My local does a happy hour on its craft ale, down to £2.50 a pint, that's about fair.

Pint prices have joined the list of widely acknowledged outrages in the UK, like footballer salaries, investment banker bonuses, the Honours list, etc...oh, and house prices.

[Kurt Barlow]

Ouch, a lesson learned I guess - that's the trouble with these outfits, they play on the fact that the world is full of people who hate the rat race & want to work for themselves and its far too easy to let the heart rule the head.

The Pub Co's deliberately target the not so bright but may have some money in their pocket. Having worked for a couple of years for a pub co I knew many of the tricks.

I said to my brother before he signed the contract let me read it and I will find the traps. The classic one is where they can raise the rent at will.

I said go back to them and offer to sign the lease only with the provision they amend the contract to keep the rent frozen for 5 years or at most raised by no more than the RPI.

He ignored this advice and signed. 5 months later receives a 75% rent increase.

Fools and their money.

[spyguy]

The Pubcos were a disastrous compromise resulting from the breakup of the brewery-owned pubs. Punch and Enterprise Inns are not pub owners but heavily indebted real estate companies that have an extraordinary power to charge pubs well over the going rate for beer in exchange for modest rents. They bleed the landlords dry and then seek a new host. The success of a freehouse chain Weatherspoons shows how far this overcharging goes - beer tends to be £1 or more cheaper than elsewhere.

A freehouse is the only way to make money in the pub trade.

Its not just over indebted.

PubCos were the biggest users of securitisation.

The reasons why they are not bust is that no-one can unravel the finance. There's not legal guidelines on taking aprt the debt.

So thee zombies live on. Selling the odd pub off whne it needs more cash. Ripping off LLs to pay for the debt.

The only good thing is it seems they have run out of people willing to take on a Punch or Enterprise tenancy now.

The number of empty pubs owned by them is huge - there's 3 where I live.

[spyguy]

The Pub Co's deliberately target the not so bright but may have some money in their pocket. Having worked for a couple of years for a pub co I knew many of the tricks.

I said to my brother before he signed the contract let me read it and I will find the traps. The classic one is where they can raise the rent at will.

I said go back to them and offer to sign the lease only with the provision they amend the contract to keep the rent frozen for 5 years or at most raised by no more than the RPI.

He ignored this advice and signed. 5 months later receives a 75% rent increase.

Fools and their money.

Prey on redundancy money or leaving the army bonus.