longgone Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 Voted leave on the basis it would shake down the rigged boomer economy down to the core, seems to be working some of us don`t want prosperity we just want others to lose their rigged version of theirs. ? Covid19 is just the cherry on the top and the double juicy morello glace cherry on top is the possibility getting rid of the house blocking nimbys and sad sacks that paid beer money for their homes and did the least work for their pensions. suits you sir Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Measured against its own prospectus Brexit has already comprehensively failed and over the next 12 months it will be clear to see that "project fear" has been delivered. Even so, there is no point in campaigning for a second referendum a Tory government could not accept the humiliation of going cap in hand asking to rejoin, so there will be no basis for a second referendum. At the next election the opposition would be mad to throw the Tory part a lifeline by campaigning for a second referendum. The future will contain lots of talk about how Brexit always was a long term 20, 30,..50yr project and that the sun lit uplands are still out there just somewhere over the horizon. You're arguing against yourself here. On the one hand you've said that there is no defined Brexit - it was all things to all men. On the other - as above - you're saying there was a Brexit prospectus which we have failed against implying there is a settled version of Brexit. If there is a settled version of Brexit then your claim that the result of the referendum was not legitimate holds much less water because it implies that people did know what they voted for. On the other hand if there is no settled version then there is no yardstick by which it can be judged as having failed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 6 hours ago, debtlessmanc said: It was the EU suggesting it not greece. One of the curiosities of the EUophiles is that bad things=eu states, good things= EU itself, it is all very orwellian. Those of us who are cynical about the EU but think there is no point in leaving (and i guess there are a lot in the category) find it a bit alienating. as to why this guy said, well he can see the gravy train he is on and his gold plated pension under threat- Erdogan and the other despots in the region are all only too keenly aware of eu’s limitations, and how it can be destabilised. That`s all you needed to say. just ask the 48ers what they stand to lose personally, as you wont get an answer. bit like the "explain the benefits of leaving" quote that gets rolled out time and time again. would be nice to know what they lose for the chuckle factor alone ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 minute ago, longgone said: Voted leave on the basis it would shake down the rigged boomer economy down to the core, seems to be working some of us don`t want prosperity we just want others to lose their rigged version of theirs. ? Covid19 is just the cherry on the top and the double juicy morello glace cherry on top is the possibility getting rid of the house blocking nimbys and sad sacks that paid beer money for their homes and did the least work for their pensions. suits you sir Tend to agree that a leave vote is more likely to bring house prices down. a welcome benefit. It seems our remainer chums want HPI to increase even more Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 3 minutes ago, rockerboy said: Tend to agree that a leave vote is more likely to bring house prices down. a welcome benefit. It seems our remainer chums want HPI to increase even more possible but they seem very very reluctant to say what they have lost personally. They know the cause but wont let us know the effect ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huggy Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 The 5 million signatories demanding a 2nd referendum a fortnight after the result has, sadly for the Remain argument, tarnished any point about democracy. No matter how well thought out and evidenced, or not. You have proof that God Himself likes Remain? Tough, 5m signatories helped coin the term Remoaner. Sorry about that. Let's pull together though and stop arguing. We are all in this together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Gigantic Purple Slug said: I think the answer to "Brexit, what comes next" has finally been answered. We forget about it, because a greater issue looms. Coronavirus. Lol another Brexiteer desperate for everybody to forget it ever happened. I wonder why ? It is staggering to hear that, as the virus continues its rapid spread, Downing Street and the Department of Health and Social Care (DHSC) are locked in a row about Brexit – specifically, the UK’s continued access to the EU Early Warning and Response System (EWRS) for communicable diseases. The DHSC, it is reported, wish to remain in the EWRS, the prime minister decidedly does not. https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/boris-johnson-coronavirus-uk-nhs-eu-symptoms-a9372526.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, crouch said: I can't see that as long enough. You'd have to give enough time for Brexit to be shown as a manifest failure. I would think a minimum of five years and preferably much longer because it would take longer for all the insignificant trade deals yet to be struck to bear their non-fruition. Let's wait and see, the way this government is carrying on it could all have fallen apart by the end of this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 43 minutes ago, crouch said: You're arguing against yourself here. On the one hand you've said that there is no defined Brexit - it was all things to all men. On the other - as above - you're saying there was a Brexit prospectus which we have failed against implying there is a settled version of Brexit. If there is a settled version of Brexit then your claim that the result of the referendum was not legitimate holds much less water because it implies that people did know what they voted for. On the other hand if there is no settled version then there is no yardstick by which it can be judged as having failed. Not at all. The Leave campaign was deliberately structured to provide a backbone around which people could construct and vote for their own version of Brexit. It did however have a few key deliverables that supported the creation of a fantasy Brexit the EU needing us more than we needed them and therefore having to give the UK an even better than membership deal other countries queuing to give us preferential trade agreements the Brexit dividend None of which have been or will be delivered as they were never on offer and anyone who voted for Brexit on that basis might have thought they knew what they were voting for but didn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 41 minutes ago, longgone said: possible but they seem very very reluctant to say what they have lost personally. They know the cause but wont let us know the effect ? ??? you lot really are up fantasy creek without a paddle ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 35 minutes ago, crouch said: Can you imagine three months after a general election the Leader of the Opposition being interviewed on TV and complaining: "the polls have now shifted in our favour; if only the election had been held two months later we would have won!" I thought there were a lot of comments like this (only two weeks, apparently!) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/11/two-more-weeks-labour-would-have-been-in-power-shadow-chancellor The thing I still don't understand is why other countries have managed to ignore results or have a second referendum, but that was considered completely out of the question for the UK: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-ignore-lisbon-treaty-nice-treaty-ireland-greece-france-netherlands-a7105261.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46591250 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 minute ago, Kosmin said: I thought there were a lot of comments like this (only two weeks, apparently!) https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jun/11/two-more-weeks-labour-would-have-been-in-power-shadow-chancellor The thing I still don't understand is why other countries have managed to ignore results or have a second referendum, but that was considered completely out of the question for the UK: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-ignore-lisbon-treaty-nice-treaty-ireland-greece-france-netherlands-a7105261.html https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46591250 Because those countries voted on complying with EU proposals which were sometimes couched slightly differently the second time around whereas the UK vote was simply about leaving. So the equivalent would have been a vote after David Cameron had been back a second time to squeeze more concessions out of the EU which of course didn't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, Confusion of VIs said: At the next election the opposition would be mad to throw the Tory part a lifeline by campaigning for a second referendum. The future will contain lots of talk about how Brexit always was a long term 20, 30,..50yr project and that the sun lit uplands are still out there just somewhere over the horizon. If Brexit is a 20-50yr project, that is much longer than austerity, and that clearly proved difficult for the Tories in several elections. I'm not convinced that Brexit will be any different. I think the Tories will have to be able to point to ways in which it's being beneficial, rather than just making claims about how it might work out in several decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 16 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Not at all. The Leave campaign was deliberately structured to provide a backbone around which people could construct and vote for their own version of Brexit. It did however have a few key deliverables that supported the creation of a fantasy Brexit the EU needing us more than we needed them and therefore having to give the UK an even better than membership deal other countries queuing to give us preferential trade agreements the Brexit dividend None of which have been or will be delivered as they were never on offer and anyone who voted for Brexit on that basis might have thought they knew what they were voting for but didn't. The vast majority of Leavers voted for sovereignty and immigration reasons and the things you mention were just side issues to most, in fact largely irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 2 hours ago, rockerboy said: I thought you said you you'd accepted the result? "Remember kids - Remainer = Gamer Danger" Yet again I have to explain the bleeding obvious to rocketboy . I have accepted the result, we have left so there is no alternative, but it doesn't follow that I like it. The next step is to campaign for rejoin referendum. As I said earlier today "We are now a lone state in the descendence, silly and insignificant, but with a right wing populist government and a nuclear arsenal ". Now that is dangerous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longgone Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 29 minutes ago, pig said: ??? you lot really are up fantasy creek without a paddle ! But i don` t understand the power of the vote as i don`t personally lose anything. maybe i could make a better voting decision in the future if i understood all the variables. Hear from the foot soldiers as it were. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Confusion of VIs Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 26 minutes ago, crouch said: The vast majority of Leavers voted for sovereignty and immigration reasons and the things you mention were just side issues to most, in fact largely irrelevant. Sovereignty and immigration were important for many but only once they had convinced themselves that the economy was secure. When people were asked if the would support leaving if it made their household £100pm worse off, only around 20% said they would. Successfully branding reality as project fear was the keystone that enabled a Leave majority to be built. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 10 minutes ago, crouch said: Because those countries voted on complying with EU proposals which were sometimes couched slightly differently the second time around whereas the UK vote was simply about leaving. What about the times that when the second wasn't couched differently? What about the Greek referendum? (That was much clearer as more than 60% voted no, but the government went ahead) I wasn't suggesting that the British referendum was equivalent to those held in other countries. I was pointing out that in numerous occasions the result of a referendum has been ignored. Why wasn't there an outcry? Did people know there would be concessions before a second referendum was asked? 12 minutes ago, crouch said: So the equivalent would have been a vote after David Cameron had been back a second time to squeeze more concessions out of the EU which of course didn't happen. But why didn't he try to do this? I think he didn't because he wasn't prepared to risk personal embarrassment or splits in the Tory party. In the absence of the ERG, the Prime Minister could have gone back to the EU for concessions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 1 hour ago, crouch said: Your humourmeter is a bit off today; I am, tongue in cheek, and facetiously, playing devil's advocate. I heard today that things have got so bad in areas that the Italians, with a higher ICU per head of population are prioritising people in their 30's/40s/50s This is going on while our PM is busy refusing cooperation with the EWRS because, you know...drum roll.... ......Brexit ! Anecdotally returning Brits who think we are a couple of weeks away from the situation in Italy, are amazed at our complacency. In other news Mary Beard gets vetoed by the government because of pro Europe views. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/mar/01/british-museum-put-mary-beard-on-the-board-despite-downing-st-veto I guess the broader lesson is about a country being marinaded in nationalist stupidity but this is driving or being driven by Brexit. Is it simply wishful thinking you'll be able to keep Brexit hiding in a fridge ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 19 minutes ago, Confusion of VIs said: Sovereignty and immigration were important for many but only once they had convinced themselves that the economy was secure. When people were asked if the would support leaving if it made their household £100pm worse off, only around 20% said they would. Successfully branding reality as project fear was the keystone that enabled a Leave majority to be built. I find this unconvincing. What you call "reality" was just speculation and was rightly dismissed as such and not being that concerned about the economic aspect is not the same as having "convinced themselves that the economy was secure". Also it's rather amusing to hear that they were concerned about the economy being secure when much of the Leave vote was from areas that had been anything but secure for years. According to you they were then seeking reassurance about something they never had. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 44 minutes ago, crouch said: The vast majority of Leavers voted for sovereignty and immigration reasons These were the most important factors, but they weren't overwhelmingly important: "The two most important reasons for voting Leave were: ‘The principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK’, which was ranked first by 49% of Leave voters; and ‘A feeling that voting to leave the EU offered the best chance for the UK to regain control over immigration and its own borders’, which was ranked first by 33% of Leave voters" https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/CSI-Brexit-4-People’s-Stated-Reasons-for-Voting-Leave.pdf 54 minutes ago, crouch said: and the things you mention were just side issues to most, in fact largely irrelevant. Leave campaigned quite significantly on economic matters. I think it's very likely the people persuaded by economic factors were enough to swing the result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 9 minutes ago, pig said: Is it simply wishful thinking you'll be able to keep Brexit hiding in a fridge ? You won't need to keep Brexit hiding in the fridge as a deliberate conspiracy because it will be there along side every thing else. Brexit will get merged with C vid 19; the upcoming financial crash/ recession; alien invasion; in other words anything else. You won't be able to decide in substantial economic terms whether Brexit is good or bad over the long term and I say this as fact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 31 minutes ago, Kosmin said: I wasn't suggesting that the British referendum was equivalent to those held in other countries. I was pointing out that in numerous occasions the result of a referendum has been ignored. Why wasn't there an outcry? Did people know there would be concessions before a second referendum was asked? Aren't you assuming there wasn't an outcry? There may have been. 32 minutes ago, Kosmin said: But why didn't he try to do this? I think he didn't because he wasn't prepared to risk personal embarrassment or splits in the Tory party. In the absence of the ERG, the Prime Minister could have gone back to the EU for concessions. You're right; it's rather a humiliating position to be placed in; it not only shows his weakness it also shows the inability of the EU to move on these matters and to show flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 11 minutes ago, Kosmin said: Leave campaigned quite significantly on economic matters. I think it's very likely the people persuaded by economic factors were enough to swing the result. We will never know and have no grounds for presumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moneyfornothing Posted March 9, 2020 Share Posted March 9, 2020 13 hours ago, bear.getting.old said: Until remainers grasp the main drivers of Brexit you will never have peace. The fact that they didn't grasp it is the reason that remainers formed the view that we should not leave and still are mystified today about brexit as some on this thread demonstate. As for nastyness its very clear that the sour grapes, the bad behaviour, the bitterness, lack of understanding of democracy and the trying of any dirty trick that could be pulled to try to stop brexit all came from remainers. Really you should move on its not healthy for you to have such a chip on your shoulders this and the fact that a vocal twitter and online forum community reinforce each others view that they are a majority when in actual fact they are a deluded minority Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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