South Lorne Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) Is he ? The best chance for UKIP to have a long term political future is for that to happen ...he has to be in position until two years at least after A50 is invoked.....you can't trust the weaklings around the yard..an early General Election will solidify his position ....... Edited June 28, 2016 by South Lorne Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Well now we can have one system for everyone. So I'm glad you can see that the out vote has improved the situation by reducing discrimination. Roy walked into that one didn't he. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpectrumFX Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Is that the version you want here? What benefits does it provide? Can the migrants from around the world access benefits in the uk? You are not explaining yourself properly just saying "Australia does it" you are not 7 and should be able to construct an argument. What specifically is it you want to introduce, how is it tailored to the uk, and how and why is it better than what we have already? This is simply the Burden of Proof logical fallacy. You'll need to do better as you're not going to convince anybody of anything here with such tricks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Errr.....no EU member state country offers visa-free access to non-EU individuals. Therefore, it would be fair to state that the EU, in its entirety, offers a two-tier entry system for each and everyone of its member state countries. Hmm I suppose if you get enough monkeys with enough computers one of you might come up with a truth. Will eu countries can offer their own passports to who they want http://www.cybarco.com/eu-citizenship Note the different requirements for a Cyprus passport to those of the uk To try again, the eu is a trading block, not a passport club, it provides for free travel between countries, enable yountomlive where you want. If the an eu country has its own visa system fine, if it sells passports it's fine. If the uk discriminated against non-eu job seekers that too is fine. But it makes the uk racist, not the eu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 This is simply the Burden of Proof logical fallacy. You'll need to do better as you're not going to convince anybody of anything here with such tricks. I think I could trick you if I pretended to steal your nose, but please keep messaging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 wonderpup, realise that your comments are not wasted on lurkers - even if they are wasted on the two remoaners in this thread. Oh goodness - chill, wonderpup is perfectly safe and take care of himself lol! Kind of get its meant to be a Brexit echo chamber + the usual guilt exorcism baloney "they accuse us of X well by gum they're worse!". Wonderpup does start some of the best threads. And there is something beautifully deterministic in his posts given the initial premise or what is edited out of the argument. Logic flows out like a Matisse producing elegant cut-outs with mere pieces of paper and scissors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 You are elegant in words Pig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
South Lorne Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Osbourne did say property would fall by up to 18%, and I have every faith in his prediction, but he was probably being cautious so as not to spook the markets. I'd start your negotiations at minus 30% with a caveat that it is linked to how economy performs in the next few weeks! http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/eu-referendum-george-osborne-house-prices-brexit ..as stated Osborne's policies over BTL and his promise to stop the money laundering in the London market were all contributing and his delay to April for the increased stamp duty on BTL created mini boom then bust to the HP fall ...before BREXIT....he will say anything ...but all these things must come into play and he has to ban the overseas trusts from buying in the London market ..now.......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) If the uk discriminated against non-eu job seekers that too is fine. But it makes the uk racist, not the eu. Roy, you just love walking into this argumentative lamp-post don't you? You're agreeing (again!) with the plain-and-simple notion that the EU freedom of movement is discriminatory, because no EU member state offers freedom of movement for non-EU members. A points system would be the only sane, equal opportunity system that allows for equality and controlled immigration. oh, and the link to the Cypriot passport page? Did you even read it? It requires the purchase of property on Cyprus of at least 500,000 Euros. Yeah, private club. You have more in common with Donald Trump than you'd like to believe. Edited June 28, 2016 by canbuywontbuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 You are elegant in words Pig Oh, the irony of your comment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snicks918 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Hmm I suppose if you get enough monkeys with enough computers one of you might come up with a truth. Will eu countries can offer their own passports to who they want http://www.cybarco.com/eu-citizenship Note the different requirements for a Cyprus passport to those of the uk To try again, the eu is a trading block, not a passport club, it provides for free travel between countries, enable yountomlive where you want. If the an eu country has its own visa system fine, if it sells passports it's fine. If the uk discriminated against non-eu job seekers that too is fine. But it makes the uk racist, not the eu. The requirements I listed are for visas, not passports. It takes years of residency in the UK (which requires a visa) before you can apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain. Then after that you are eligible for a passport, provided you pass the Life in the UK test. So I don't think anyone is talking about a 'passport club', just the ability to live/work/study. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
workingpoor Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I think that this is the typical attitude of a Leaver. Nothing to lose. We just want change. Stop immigration. Don't bother to think it through too much, certainly not the consequences in case you heed hurts. Sure its not difficult to negotiate our way out if you want to commit economic suicide that is - that's why the government are scrambling to get the best brains on board to get us out of this unholy mess. Some people will not understand they are up S@@t creek until they are personally impacted - that will happen soon enough. Welcome to the new Britain - sorry, soon to be Little England and Tiny Appendage Wales. "The soil is being turned over" as someone mentioned in another post. I had nothing to lose (not even benefits) & i'am incredibly happy about this entire affair having campaigned hard for Brexit on SM for months. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rahhhh Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I had a revelation in the storm the night before the election of exactly this argument. Having been called a racist for wanting to leave the EU I realised that it was in fact the remain camp that are racist. There are a significant number of minorities that voted Leave on precisely this realisation Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 I had a revelation in the storm the night before the election of exactly this argument. Having been called a racist for wanting to leave the EU I realised that it was in fact the remain camp that are racist. There are a significant number of minorities that voted Leave on precisely this realisation That is because loony tune out voters believed that we would become the land of milk and honey. BME immigrant voters were told that their friends and relatives would have more chance of becoming uk citizens, this was a lie, similar to the nhs money, similar to all the other lies you all swallowed. Brexiter - how many voters does it take to change a lightbulb? Voter - I don't know, how many voters does it take to change a light bulb? Brexiter - what? What!!! We never mentioned light bulbs...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) I had a revelation in the storm the night before the election of exactly this argument. Having been called a racist for wanting to leave the EU I realised that it was in fact the remain camp that are racist. There are a significant number of minorities that voted Leave on precisely this realisation The remain camp used a relativist argument. "Little Englander" xenophobe v the expansive, tolerant multi-cultural europhile. But when you use the relativist argument against them (why is there no equal opportunity regarding immigration?), they become dumbstruck. Look at the remain comments in this thread - not a single coherent comment - just non sequitur jokey comments, or uncontrolled rants. Again, this thread is for lurkers, not debate. Edited June 28, 2016 by canbuywontbuy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 The requirements I listed are for visas, not passports. It takes years of residency in the UK (which requires a visa) before you can apply for Indefinite Leave to Remain. Then after that you are eligible for a passport, provided you pass the Life in the UK test. So I don't think anyone is talking about a 'passport club', just the ability to live/work/study. Just to restate - this is a uk requirement, not an eu requirement, the eu is not a passport club. Requirements for the uk are and always have been within our gift for non-eu citizens. If the uk discriminated against non-eu citizens, this was the decision of the U.K. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 The remain camp used a relativist argument. "Little Englander" xenophobe v the expansive, tolerant multi-cultural europhile. But when you use the relativist argument against them (why is there no equal opportunity regarding immigration?), they become dumbstruck. Look at the remain comments in this thread - not a single coherent comment - just non sequitur jokey comments, or uncontrolled rants. Again, this thread is for lurkers, not debate. I like the word relativist, trouble is your argument is not based on fact. It is facts that win arguments normally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thewig Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 You were sold a pup, now have to defend it. Er, no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canbuywontbuy Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Just to restate - this is a uk requirement, not an eu requirement, the eu is not a passport club. Requirements for the uk are and always have been within our gift for non-eu citizens. If the uk discriminated against non-eu citizens, this was the decision of the U.K. Same old lamp-post, eh, Roy? All EU member states have the same policy Roy. All have a two-tier system. If all EU member states have two-tier immigration, then .... like maths, you can simplify the equation: the EU has a two-tier immigration system - which you yourself call discriminatory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snicks918 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Well, as an immigrant, I can say that I never thought the restrictions would get lighter, nor do I know if I even want to be a British citizen. Quite proud of my American passport, thanks. I don't know anyone else who expected restrictions to change either (our experiences are equally anecdotal, before we even go down that road). If the goal is to increase migration it wouldn't make sense to lighten restrictions, unless it's for a specific skill category, such as engineering, that would benefit UK business to do so. It would just be preferable for everyone to be held to the same high standard. And honestly, it's pretty offensive that you are portraying immigrants like they all are stupid and desperate to be British, as if they all come from some godforsaken hole. Attitudes sure have changed since 2012. I wonder where all those unskilled workers were coming from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Er, no. Good argument, very clever, proud of you. Have a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royw6 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Snicks918 good post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 (edited) Not so- the EU has a defined geographical border made up of the aggregated borders of it's member states- it makes a clear legal and political distinction between those who live inside that border and those who live outside it. So my question is does the fact that the EU makes this distiction mean that the EU is a racist organisation? The concept of EU citizenship has been around since the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union It affords certain rights to its citizens which are denied to non citizens. That is one of the defining characteristics of a state as it has been since the days of the Roman Empire. For people to argue that the EU is just a trading block is to completely ignore that reality. The whole point of states be they based round nationality, ethnic group or geography is that they confer certain privileges and responsibilities on their citizens which are denied to non citizens. Interesting to note that one of the countries where it is probably easiest for non EU citizens to become national citizens and thereby citizens of the EU is the UK. Edited June 28, 2016 by stormymonday_2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 In 18 months time, why not have another referendum - EEA vs WTO....If UKIP lose that, they haven't got elsewhere to go.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slawek Posted June 28, 2016 Share Posted June 28, 2016 Polish perspective Any deal need to be agreed by the EU parliament and all EU nations, zero chance on free trade without free people movement. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07ht9tz/hardtalk-radek-sikorski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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