Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[EUBanana]

Just now, Futuroid said:

Nobody is suggesting parliament is full of traitors (OK, maybe a few Leave voters and their masters in the press are).

It's the fact that the government - and seemingly quite a few fans of "soverignty" - don't want any parliamentary scrutiny of (a) the plan to negotiate our exit from the EU and (b) the actual deal that is on the table before we agree to it as a nation that is causing the UK to appear rather silly and become the world's first banana monarchy.

"The people" decided to leave the EU by a wafer thin margin. Everyone gets that. That doesn't give you carte blanche to sign off on any deal the three monkeys of Brexpocalypse see fit to dream up.

So long as we leave they can scrutinise it all they want.  They don't want to leave, they want to sabotage, they are even quite open about it.  It's not like Clegg or Owen Smith are being disingenuous on the subject.

As for the margin, well, it was a bigger 'wafer thin' margin than Obama's re-election.  Maybe he should've implemented a third of the Republican program due to his wafer thin margin?  When you cut out Scotland the margin is bigger still, it was 55/45 in England.  And Scotland will be gone soon. 

[winkie]

 

[XswampyX]

12 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Nobody is suggesting parliament is full of traitors (OK, maybe a few Leave voters and their masters in the press are).

It's the fact that the government - and seemingly quite a few fans of "soverignty" - don't want any parliamentary scrutiny of (a) the plan to negotiate our exit from the EU and (b) the actual deal that is on the table before we agree to it as a nation that is causing the UK to appear rather silly and become the world's first banana monarchy.

"The people" decided to leave the EU by a wafer thin margin. Everyone gets that. That doesn't give you carte blanche to sign off on any deal the three monkeys of Brexpocalypse see fit to dream up.

You have the 'cart before the horse'. You can't use your new found 'sovereignty' to deny it and put you back in pokey. 

 

Edited November 5, 2016 by XswampyX

[Sheeple Splinter]

20 minutes ago, Futuroid said:

Nobody is suggesting parliament is full of traitors (OK, maybe a few Leave voters and their masters in the press are).

It's the fact that the government - and seemingly quite a few fans of "soverignty" - don't want any parliamentary scrutiny of (a) the plan to negotiate our exit from the EU and (b) the actual deal that is on the table before we agree to it as a nation that is causing the UK to appear rather silly and become the world's first banana monarchy.

"The people" decided to leave the EU by a wafer thin margin. Everyone gets that. That doesn't give you carte blanche to sign off on any deal the three monkeys of Brexpocalypse see fit to dream up.

I can see the remedia spin is working.

Article 50 is not a deal; it is a signal.

Parliament can scrutinise, debate, fillibuster, stall and agree the negotiations but, sadly, guess who ultimately decides the deal?

I'll give you a clue; it sounds like you.

Edited November 5, 2016 by Sheeple Splinter
typo

[EUBanana]

Ah, those halcyon days of 2015, when Hammond was a eurosceptic and democrat, before the mask got pulled.

People like Hammond are why there were demands for a referendum.  Nobody trusts these two faced traitors to do the job. 

[long time lurking]

Just now, XswampyX said:

The remoaners don't know nuffink. Thick as pig shyte..... No wonder they voted for remoan.

They want a full on debate and expected result, all our plans and strategies laid out, debated, and re-debated before we can even start talking to the 'other side'. What a bunch of f**king morons. No wonder they voted for remoan. They didn't give a damn about any of this when it was pouring out of the EU ******** sphincter. 

Yep they moan they will be made poorer now they are trying to make it happen on steroids 

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Getting practical for the moment, what are the options now? As far as I can see, there's broadly two paths that May can go down.

The first is to attempt to get an 'article 50 act' through parliament and the second is to attempt to dissolve parliament. I don't see either of these delivering any kind of meaningful Brexit. Any kind of article 50 act that doesn't have details on how the government intends to negotiate has no chance of passing as 75% of MPs want to remain and will use the lack of detail as an excuse to ignore the referendum result. On the other hand, any act that has details amounting to a clean break will also fail to pass on the basis of "that's not what people voted for". To get it through, it'll have to be a "trigger article 50 with the government bound to negotiating to join the EEA or similar" deal, which is basically no Brexit at all.

The "go to the country" option is almost certain to be blocked by Labour as they know they'll get crucified. Even if they did manage it, there's absolutely no reason to believe that a new intake of MPs would be any more inclined to take us out of the EU anyway. In that scenario, the Tory Party election manifesto would have to contain something that looked like a trigger article 50 act which, without mass deselection of sitting MPs, would have all the same problems as the real thing.

My prediction is that we're now staying in the EU in all but name regardless of what anyone votes for. If that's democracy then I'm a banana.

[EUBanana]

The ancient Greeks considered elections to be an oligarchic, not democratic, method to run a country.

They knew more about governance than we do apparently.

[casual_squash]

The cats out the bag and no amount of fiddling by Parliament will end this porblem for them. Short term or long term.

If Labour are seen to block a general election and therefore Brexit then that would be it for them in the North, midlands and parts of Wales. They may as well rename themselves the Socialist party of London. 

They'd have to welcome a snap election to at least play along with charade. Plus the PLP can hope beyond hope it would finally rid them of Corbyn. To me that would be their least worst option. 

 

 

[Mikhail Liebenstein]

27 minutes ago, TheBlueCat said:

Getting practical for the moment, what are the options now? As far as I can see, there's broadly two paths that May can go down.

The first is to attempt to get an 'article 50 act' through parliament and the second is to attempt to dissolve parliament. I don't see either of these delivering any kind of meaningful Brexit. Any kind of article 50 act that doesn't have details on how the government intends to negotiate has no chance of passing as 75% of MPs want to remain and will use the lack of detail as an excuse to ignore the referendum result.

The options you suggest are the only options available full stop if May wants to pursue a Brexit. There is of course the third option, take the case to appeal and lose and then drag things out for a further three years with an appeal to the European Courts. Blame the legal process and drag it out until 2020 and a new general election.

BTW, I am not certain an immediate election would help the Brexit cause. It is unlikely the make up of the pro-Europe conservatives would be reduced much, and actually as it is a General most people are going to vote on their broader political views not just Europe. Labour and the Conservatives might lose some support to UKIP, but I could also see the Lb Dems resurging substantially as the pro-European vote would be more concentrated on them, whereas Conservative and UKIP would split the vote.

The net result might be fewer Labour MPs due to Corbyn, a similar number of Conservatives and 45 more Lib Dems, and per 2 UKIP, plus a similar truck load of Scots Nats.

 

 

[Funn3r]

3 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

This is one of the most ignorant and hateful posts I've read on the internet, and I've been reading the web for a couple of decades - congrats....I guess.

Your comment reveals a horribly ugly side of yourself - a side you truly wouldn't want to see a reflection of in the cold light of day. 

Actually, you are a fomenter of racism.  You actually promote it.  You are like some kind of ultra-feminist who sees every man as a mysognist (every leaver as a racist). Your view is so hateful, it actually radiates hate, and spreads it.  I don't know what caused you to form your view - but you do need some kind of therapy or "letting go" of some past trauma to alleviate yourself of the burden you carry. 

Personally, it doesn't matter to me if it was 10,000 morris-dancing, Shakespeare-loving Doomsday-family-tree English families that moved in a short period of time to my hometown to cause issues with employment, housing, schools, health services  - OR if those 10,000 people came from Chile or Bulgaria or New Zealand - the problem is the fu3king same.

 

Well I don't mind someone opposing my opinion but I think worst in 2 decades etc. is a bit harsh.

All I meant was that some people naturally feel that way, it's not their fault and they have the right to, but could they please cope with it in some other way. Instead of demanding a Brexit which half the country doesn't want and which is wrecking the value of my savings.

[XswampyX]

What makes me laugh is Labour lefties make out that the Conservatives are racist, poor hating, baby killers that want total destruction of the left. Yet if they forced a general election then Labour would actually be finished for good!

The left wouldn't be so gracious.

The cat is out of the bag and it's never going to go back in.

[XswampyX]

3 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

the value of my savings.

Where do you live, the 1970's? 

[the gardener]

If it goes to a snap General Election, as others have said, Labour are finished in the north.  Anyone who stands on an anti-Brexit mandate will be finished as UKIP will stand against them.  I don't need to mention the LibDems as they are already finished - the student tuition fees betrayal destroyed them and their hard-line Remainer anti-democratic behaviour since has ensured they are gone for good.  Let's see the Remoaner try to derail Brexit when 450+MPs are voted in on a mandate to take the UK out of the EU.

I've never volunteered to help out a political party in my life but I will be hitting the streets and campaigning for UKIP (maybe not in my own constituency since our local Conservative MP - even though I don't like him much - is for Brexit.

[macfarlan]

59 minutes ago, XswampyX said:

The remoaners don't know nuffink. Thick as pig shyte..... No wonder they voted for remoan.

They want a full on debate and expected result, all our plans and strategies laid out, debated, and re-debated before we can even start talking to the 'other side'. What a bunch of f**king morons. No wonder they voted for remoan. They didn't give a damn about any of this when it was pouring out of the EU ******** sphincter. 

What was your plan by the way?

This kind of rhetoric is a big part of the problem; The government (i.e. the judiciary?) are trying to derail brexit - they didn't do this, dont do that & remainers are like this, leavers are like that. Good grief. None of them are single organisms, they're all groups that are made up of individuals with differing opinions and any discussion suggesting otherwise comes across as tribal, ill informed and juvenile. It belittles whatever argument you're trying to make.

 

[macfarlan]

25 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

Well I don't mind someone opposing my opinion but I think worst in 2 decades etc. is a bit harsh.

All I meant was that some people naturally feel that way, it's not their fault and they have the right to, but could they please cope with it in some other way. Instead of demanding a Brexit which half the country doesn't want and which is wrecking the value of my savings.

He's just trying to 'win the argument' by deliberately misinterpreting your post and trying to make you feel bad for what you wrote. Well done for not falling for it.

[Futuroid]

3 hours ago, XswampyX said:

 

Good grief, what an indictment of afternoon drinking!

Firstly, before voting to activate Article 50, I wouldn't expect a complete portfolio of possible deals laid out in public view, simply demonstration that a proper plan is in place for the negotiations and that there is an oversight / feedback structure in place so that MPs from across the major parties can contribute. People on here were mocking MEPs being made to go into a secret "no cameras" zone to look at the TTIP draft. Now those same people don't want our MPs to see ANY of the Brexit negotiations until the ink is dry and the paperwork is filed! 

Secondly, once some kind of deal has been arrived it, does it seem unreasonable to allow the parliament of this country to vote on it? If they vote against it, the negotiating team will have to return to the table and try to finesse the deal into something that UK parliamentarians would approve.

[SpectrumFX]

6 minutes ago, macfarlan said:

He's just trying to 'win the argument' by deliberately misinterpreting your post and trying to make you feel bad for what you wrote. Well done for not falling for it.

He said that he was right because he was genetically superior to the racists who disagreed with him. His genetic superiority giving him an insight beyond that of his racist peers.

Presuming he wasn't being ironic it may be the most moronic thing anybody has ever said.

[Funn3r]

10 minutes ago, SpectrumFX said:

He said that he was right because he was genetically superior to the racists who disagreed with him. His genetic superiority giving him an insight beyond that of his racist peers.

Presuming he wasn't being ironic it may be the most moronic thing anybody has ever said.

I've only been a member of this forum for a couple of years but general tone and style seems to have gone downhill very fast recently. Querying the party line (in any environment) should not provide automatic justification to declare fair targets for streams of personal insults. I'm surprised nobody has godwinned this thread yet in fact.

[knock out johnny]

12 minutes ago, Funn3r said:

I've only been a member of this forum for a couple of years but general tone and style seems to have gone downhill very fast recently. Querying the party line (in any environment) should not provide automatic justification to declare fair targets for streams of personal insults. I'm surprised nobody has godwinned this thread yet in fact.

Well someone did say they'd vote for a reanimated adolf hitler if he could ensure hard brexit 

is that  godwin enough for you?

[the gardener]

Just now, knock out johnny said:

Well someone did say they'd vote for a reanimated adolf hitler if he could ensure hard brexit 

is that  godwin enough for you?

That was me. I'd also campaign for him.

 

[knock out johnny]

1 minute ago, the gardener said:

That was me. I'd also campaign for him.

 

I'm sure you would

how very tragic

[pig]

2 hours ago, TheBlueCat said:

Getting practical for the moment, what are the options now? As far as I can see, there's broadly two paths that May can go down.

The first is to attempt to get an 'article 50 act' through parliament and the second is to attempt to dissolve parliament. I don't see either of these delivering any kind of meaningful Brexit. Any kind of article 50 act that doesn't have details on how the government intends to negotiate has no chance of passing as 75% of MPs want to remain and will use the lack of detail as an excuse to ignore the referendum result. On the other hand, any act that has details amounting to a clean break will also fail to pass on the basis of "that's not what people voted for". To get it through, it'll have to be a "trigger article 50 with the government bound to negotiating to join the EEA or similar" deal, which is basically no Brexit at all.

The "go to the country" option is almost certain to be blocked by Labour as they know they'll get crucified. Even if they did manage it, there's absolutely no reason to believe that a new intake of MPs would be any more inclined to take us out of the EU anyway. In that scenario, the Tory Party election manifesto would have to contain something that looked like a trigger article 50 act which, without mass deselection of sitting MPs, would have all the same problems as the real thing.

My prediction is that we're now staying in the EU in all but name regardless of what anyone votes for. If that's democracy then I'm a banana.

It's a gordian knot that can be and always could be simply cut  through by having a coherant credible vision delivered by competent politicians  of a UK better off outside of the EU.

Without it, the 4% mandate will shrink or reverse.

Best bet is to bypass parliament, wing it and hope nobody notices...

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, canbuywontbuy said:

it's clear (at least, to me) that the UK will remain in the EU, with all of its attendant problems.  But even worse, we now have to put up with the pretense (and charade) that we're attempting to leave it, before we finally decide we're not leaving it, OR we do offically leave it, but in name only (4 freedoms kept).  And so, I ask Remainers what it is they want out of all of this? (I like to ask this to keep them a bit quiet actually).

That's a strange turn of events as it's equally clear to me that short of a complete cave in on FoM from the EU (unlikely but not impossible, as several of the richer states would love this to happen especially if they could blame it on the UK) we are going to leave.

It's also pretty clear that given the complex approval/ratification mechanics it will a very hard Brexit as any meaningful deal is bound to upset one or more of the 27 countries. So asking what I, as a Remainer would like from Brexit is pretty pointless - I would like Boris's "pro cake and pro eating it" deal but don't think this will be on offer.   

[Confusion of VIs]

2 hours ago, TheBlueCat said:

Getting practical for the moment, what are the options now? As far as I can see, there's broadly two paths that May can go down.

The first is to attempt to get an 'article 50 act' through parliament and the second is to attempt to dissolve parliament. I don't see either of these delivering any kind of meaningful Brexit. Any kind of article 50 act that doesn't have details on how the government intends to negotiate has no chance of passing as 75% of MPs want to remain and will use the lack of detail as an excuse to ignore the referendum result. On the other hand, any act that has details amounting to a clean break will also fail to pass on the basis of "that's not what people voted for". To get it through, it'll have to be a "trigger article 50 with the government bound to negotiating to join the EEA or similar" deal, which is basically no Brexit at all.

The "go to the country" option is almost certain to be blocked by Labour as they know they'll get crucified. Even if they did manage it, there's absolutely no reason to believe that a new intake of MPs would be any more inclined to take us out of the EU anyway. In that scenario, the Tory Party election manifesto would have to contain something that looked like a trigger article 50 act which, without mass deselection of sitting MPs, would have all the same problems as the real thing.

My prediction is that we're now staying in the EU in all but name regardless of what anyone votes for. If that's democracy then I'm a banana.

I don't believe this for a minute, if May asks for the authority to invoke A50 the vote will pass. I do want to know what she believes the "best possible deal" will look like as we need some sort of measure for assessing her success or otherwise in negotiating Brexit. At the moment she is trying to avoid accountability for the outcome.