IMHAL Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 8 hours ago, Dave Beans said: We could have protocols added, that could help control immigration, or where agricultural goods could submitted from EEA states to the single market...Much could be done... It also means that on the 30th March 2019, we can start trade negotiations with all and sundry... Having a quick read of the EFTA - it seems that they are bound by the 4 freedoms - including FoM. Personally I like the Norway option as the best of the bad deals out there. If you think that we can wriggle out of migration then I fear you too are clutching at straws. http://uk.businessinsider.com/efta-eea-why-hard-brexiteers-are-now-embracing-the-norway-brexit-model-2017-8 The biggest sticking point when it comes to the Norway model is what it would mean for immigration to the UK. All EEA members are required to accept the 'four freedoms', including the free movement of people. Again, this would be a tough pill to swallow for Westminster Brexiteers, and would likely trigger a backlash from Leave voters. However, Article 112 of the EEA Agreement does allow non-EU member states to opt out from any of the four freedoms if they are facing serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties as a result of the freedoms. For example, Lichenstein used Article 112 to impose controls on EEA migration due to concerns regarding its modest size and whether it was able to handle a huge influx of people. Norgrove concedes it is very unlikely Britain would be able to negotiate a similar opt-out. "I don't necessarily think the UK could arrange the same sort of thing," he said. This is a view shared by most academics and commentators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futuroid Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, IMHAL said: Having a quick read of the EFTA - it seems that they are bound by the 4 freedoms - including FoM. Personally I like the Norway option as the best of the bad deals out there. If you think that we can wriggle out of migration then I fear you too are clutching at straws. http://uk.businessinsider.com/efta-eea-why-hard-brexiteers-are-now-embracing-the-norway-brexit-model-2017-8 The biggest sticking point when it comes to the Norway model is what it would mean for immigration to the UK. All EEA members are required to accept the 'four freedoms', including the free movement of people. Again, this would be a tough pill to swallow for Westminster Brexiteers, and would likely trigger a backlash from Leave voters. I think it's important to clarify what "immigration" means in these terms. You will never be able to stop people physically coming to the country (a tourist visa will allow a 3 month stay and you can do plenty of cash in hand work in 3 months, or longer if you choose to overstay). The most likely compromise from the EU on FoM would be a way of limiting EU nationals access to benefits, particularly "in work" benefits. The EU offered something like this to Cameron back in 2016: https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-emergency-brake/ Because "in work" benefits are an oddity in the EU, it should be easier to position the UK as a special case deserving of special treatment in this area. If you added this to the existing EU rules that the UK has up until now chosen not to enforce (like having to find work within 6 months and having to show you have the financial resources to support yourself and your family when you arrive) and it would provide a meaningful difference to the current situation, but would still allow EU workers in the NHS, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, thecrashingisles said: You've been indoctrinated by loony propaganda from the Norths who have no credibility. Flexcit is as much of a pipe dream as every other Brexit plan. Nope, I've just opened my eyes, and have seen that the UK can have a future outside the teat of the EU. What other "plans" are there? Rules on trade are being slowly globalised anyway, such as WTO's single window...Interesting stuff.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-window_system Edited January 13, 2018 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikhail Liebenstein Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 14 hours ago, ccc said: See below. It was very clear what people were voting for at a high level. Out the EU. Out the customs union. Out of the single market. This was repeated over and over. The majority voted for what you lot would describe as "hard" Brexit. That's what the populace were informed over and over that voting Brexit would mean. And they still voted for it. Let’s take Nigel up on his new suggestion then. But let’s lower the voting age to 12 and ban anyone over 70 from voting, as they won’t be around to enjoy the consequences. Edited January 13, 2018 by Mikhail Liebenstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HairyOb1 Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, Mikhail Liebenstein said: Let’s take Nigel up on his new suggestion then. But let’s lower the voting age to 12 and ban anyone over 70 from voting, as they won’t be around to enjoy the consequences. I suggested something a while back, with my tongue firmly in my cheek, and was met with howls of protest. I do, however, think 16yo's and UK folk overseas should have a vote. Not non UK citizens e.g. EU folk registered here. However, if they are registered, as 5 years here, then they too should have the vote, as they are de facto citizens now. If that were to happen, brexit would never have been voted in. Even if we voted for one in 2021, before we are due to leave, demographics with the current situation would see a reversal on the current percentages twixt brexit and remain. This still has miles to go. If all those in favour of remaining now, were to represent that desire in the local elections, e.g. vote for non-brexit parties (Lib-Dem and Greens), and not the mainstream brexit parties, then it would send a massive message to those in power what's likely to happen at the ballot box in the next election, and this could alter Brexits trajectory. Still lots of mileage in this yet. I still don't think we'll ever leave, and if we do, if it would be meaningful, so I am quite happy how this is panning out currently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Quote The week that Brexit plumbed new depths of absurdity An interesting read from this blog. chrisgreybrexitblog Worth quoting this, even though it's pretty obvious. Quote But I think there is something deeper here than Farage’s ego. There is a significant strand of Brexiter thinking, exemplified by Farage, which is besotted with a self-pitying sense of victimhood. For these people, winning the Referendum was actually a catastrophe, taking away their victim status and requiring them to do something quite hateful to them: to take responsibility for delivering what they said they wanted and which they claimed would be easy. Yip. Whining is one thing. Actually fixing the problems is quite another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 4 hours ago, HairyOb1 said: I suggested something a while back, with my tongue firmly in my cheek, and was met with howls of protest. I do, however, think 16yo's and UK folk overseas should have a vote. Not non UK citizens e.g. EU folk registered here. However, if they are registered, as 5 years here, then they too should have the vote, as they are de facto citizens now. If that were to happen, brexit would never have been voted in. Even if we voted for one in 2021, before we are due to leave, demographics with the current situation would see a reversal on the current percentages twixt brexit and remain. This still has miles to go. If all those in favour of remaining now, were to represent that desire in the local elections, e.g. vote for non-brexit parties (Lib-Dem and Greens), and not the mainstream brexit parties, then it would send a massive message to those in power what's likely to happen at the ballot box in the next election, and this could alter Brexits trajectory. Still lots of mileage in this yet. I still don't think we'll ever leave, and if we do, if it would be meaningful, so I am quite happy how this is panning out currently. All the same I’d rather this be debated and won on substance, I think that applies to all demographics even if it’s a parade of Brexiter fallacies that are currently shrivelling up in the cold light of day. In that sense I actually think there is more at stake than Brexit, although Brexit is where ‘it’ is being played out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 7 hours ago, Dave Beans said: Nope, I've just opened my eyes, and have seen that the UK can have a future outside the teat of the EU. What other "plans" are there? Rules on trade are being slowly globalised anyway, such as WTO's single window...Interesting stuff.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-window_system 'Teat of the EU'? What kind of language is that? The WTO is not relevant to internal markets such as trade between California and New York or between the UK and Germany. Besides, EU membership is about much more than economics. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 9 hours ago, Futuroid said: I think it's important to clarify what "immigration" means in these terms. You will never be able to stop people physically coming to the country (a tourist visa will allow a 3 month stay and you can do plenty of cash in hand work in 3 months, or longer if you choose to overstay). The most likely compromise from the EU on FoM would be a way of limiting EU nationals access to benefits, particularly "in work" benefits. The EU offered something like this to Cameron back in 2016: https://fullfact.org/europe/explaining-eu-deal-emergency-brake/ Because "in work" benefits are an oddity in the EU, it should be easier to position the UK as a special case deserving of special treatment in this area. If you added this to the existing EU rules that the UK has up until now chosen not to enforce (like having to find work within 6 months and having to show you have the financial resources to support yourself and your family when you arrive) and it would provide a meaningful difference to the current situation, but would still allow EU workers in the NHS, etc. This. Had the above been put into place I very much doubt we'd be where we are right now. No problem with freedom of movement personally but there should be no benefits handed out willy nilly, especially In-Work and H.B. That way the young of this country can compete on equal terms for work with immigrant families coming here. Having said that, I think the majority of In Work benefits need to be phased out for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unexpected Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 20 hours ago, IMHAL said: That is a joke question right? I'd rather the chimp from the PG tips ad had been elected than that dysfunctional lump of crinckled old lard. Hilary by contrast falls into the realms of 'a human being'. Interesting you should bring up the chimp from the PG tips ad because I'm fairly confident that had Trump been replaced by that chimp, the chimp would have won by a similar margin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, thecrashingisles said: 'Teat of the EU'? What kind of language is that? The WTO is not relevant to internal markets such as trade between California and New York or between the UK and Germany. Besides, EU membership is about much more than economics. I only voted remain as a "needs must"...That's the only relationship I want with the EU...an economic one...not this federalisation route, that the EU is determined to go down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 minute ago, Dave Beans said: I only voted remain as a "needs must"...That's the only relationship I want with the EU...an economic one...not this federalisation route, that the EU is determined to go down. So you now actively want new customs borders because you can't bear the thought of the common political institutions needed to abolish them? The EU has always been a political project, and economics cannot be separated from politics. The level of economic integration we have within the EU simply cannot be achieved from outside its political structures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: So you now actively want new customs borders because you can't bear the thought of the common political institutions needed to abolish them? The EU has always been a political project, and economics cannot be separated from politics. The level of economic integration we have within the EU simply cannot be achieved from outside its political structures. Who knows whats going to happen in the next fifteen or twenty years...the globalisation of trade is happening, whether you like it or not..I personally can't see the fanaticism that someone like you has with the EU.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Just now, Dave Beans said: Who knows whats going to happen in the next fifteen or twenty years...the globalisation of trade is happening, whether you like it or not..I personally can't see the fanaticism that someone like you has with the EU.. Which makes the EU more, not less, relevant. Sad that you can't see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: Which makes the EU more, not less, relevant. Sad that you can't see it. Spell it out for me... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 43 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: Spell it out for me... European sovereignty is only meaningful in the 21st century if we are united. No individual European country has the capacity to be sovereign in a globalised world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: European sovereignty is only meaningful in the 21st century if we are united. No individual European country has the capacity to be sovereign in a globalised world. There's voluntary membership, or there's subordination..the EU is the latter.. Edited January 13, 2018 by Dave Beans Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 5 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: There's voluntary membership, or there's subordination..the EU is the latter.. That's absurd, and if you believe that why did you 'submit' by voting Remain? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: That's absurd, and if you believe that why did you 'submit' by voting Remain? To protect local industry, which relies on the single market (which will morph into something else in time)....I have no love for the EU itself... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Dave Beans said: To protect local industry, which relies on the single market (which will morph into something else in time)....I have no love for the EU itself... Why do you think the single market will morph into something else? (Actually I know the answer: you've been sucked in by Flexcit nonsense...) Edited January 13, 2018 by thecrashingisles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 minute ago, thecrashingisles said: Why do you think the single market will morph into something else? (Actually I know the answer: you've been sucked in by Flexcit nonsense...) Nope...not necessarily Flexcit..it could be something else...Again, do you have a crystal ball? The EU isn't the be all and end all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IMHAL Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Unexpected said: Interesting you should bring up the chimp from the PG tips ad because I'm fairly confident that had Trump been replaced by that chimp, the chimp would have won by a similar margin. I take it you are either a Trump lover or a Clinton hater - or you think they are equally bad? Or the other option is that you are in fact a chimp and think that they should be the ones who rule over the free world. Edited January 13, 2018 by IMHAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollover Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Quote Donald Trump’s deteriorating relationship with Britain is likely to kill off any lingering cabinet hopes of a swift post-Brexit trade deal with the United States, a former British ambassador to Washington has warned. Quick transatlantic trade deal should be put ‘out of our minds’ says former ambassador, as poll shows 72% of British public think president is a risk to international stability. Guardian By the time UK will Brexit, if it ever happens, Trump will be long gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, Dave Beans said: Nope...not necessarily Flexcit..it could be something else...Again, do you have a crystal ball? The EU isn't the be all and end all... The EU isn't going anywhere and will be the indispensable political structure between European nations for the rest of our lifetimes. Edited January 13, 2018 by thecrashingisles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OnionTerror Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 3 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: The EU isn't going anywhere and will be the indispensable political structure between European nations for the rest of our lifetimes. I wonder, once full one federalisation is on the cards, that some of the EU27 decide enough is enough...We shall see.. You obviously been looking into your mystical crystal ball again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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