Bruce Banner Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, rockerboy said: What utter tosh - you clearly know NOTHING about healthcare https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triage Oh rocketboy, will you ever learn? Medical treatment is ultimately the decision of the individual. A doctor can not treat a patient without their consent, to do so would constitute an assault. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/consent-to-treatment/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, crouch said: The referendum was simply in or out. The details are to be settled by our representatives, of which the ERG are a group. It's hardly surprising that there were arguments in parliament subsequent to the referendum but that doesn't mean the referendum itself was ill defined; in fact in view of what has happened, it's arguable that the referendum was quite adequately defined. You're contradicting yourself again. Was "Leave" an action or a destination? If it's an action, then it's already happened and shouldn't constrain any future decisions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said: You're contradicting yourself again. Was "Leave" an action or a destination? If it's an action, then it's already happened and shouldn't constrain any future decisions. No, I'm not contradicting myself. Leave is not a destination by definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Medical treatment is ultimately the decision of the individual. Wrong ! Medical treatment is ultimately the decision of the healthcare provider, not the individual. If medical treatment is offered to you (it can be denied to you), all you can do is decide to rubberstamp the treatment or not (even that depends!). Then theres the grey area of DNR which is decided upon by relatives 33 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: A doctor can not treat a patient without their consent, to do so would constitute an assault. Wrong again ! This is a common Med Student ethics discussion topic - Abortion is such a case. The decision of healthcare providers is bound by ethics of "what is in the best interests" which takes in account patients' (plural) wishes but the medical treatment decision is not solely bound to it Anyway, even the link you provided proves what I say as per here When consent is not needed There are a few exceptions when treatment may be able to go ahead without the person's consent, even if they're capable of giving their permission. It may not be necessary to obtain consent if a person: needs emergency treatment to save their life, but they're incapacitated (for example, they're unconscious) – the reasons why treatment was necessary should be fully explained once they have recovered immediately needs an additional emergency procedure during an operation – there has to be a clear medical reason why it would be unsafe to wait to obtain consent with a severe mental health condition, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder or dementia, lacks the capacity to consent to the treatment of their mental health (under the Mental Health Act 1983) – in these cases, treatment for unrelated physical conditions still requires consent, which the patient may be able to provide, despite their mental illness needs hospital treatment for a severe mental health condition, but self-harmed or attempted suicide while competent and is refusing treatment (under the Mental Health Act 1983) – the person's nearest relative or an approved social worker must make an application for the person to be forcibly kept in hospital, and 2 doctors must assess the person's condition is a risk to public health as a result of rabies, cholera or tuberculosis (TB) is severely ill and living in unhygienic conditions (under the National Assistance Act 1948) – a person who's severely ill or infirm and living in unsanitary conditions can be taken to a place of care without their consent Edited March 10, 2020 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 24 minutes ago, Riedquat said: The result showed it wasn't a minority view - that's Remainer revisionism. I'm not sure if leaving was a minority view. Here are some thoughts on that: I think it's very unlikely that there were 17.4m leavers in 2014 and the 2016 referendum simply revealed that. It's far more likely that there were millions who were persuaded by the campaigns and debates (the polls showed growing support from a low start as well). The point is that we don't have the option of doing this for every issue, so we don't know how views would change on a particular issue if there was a campaign around a specific question/policy. But I actually meant that the ERG vision was a minority view. There was clearly significant disagreement amongst Leavers on this. Only several percent of leavers would have to disagree with the ERG to drag the 52% below 50% and they are a minority. 46 minutes ago, Riedquat said: The big difference between those issues and the EU is simply that there is some authority over the country present in the EU, and who has the authority to make decisions is the most fundamental part of democracy. Where power lies is an absolutely fundamental decision that should be up to the electorate. it should be the electorate's to hand some of that to a body such as the EU if it so chooses, and to take it back. There are other issues which are as fundamental, though I'm not sure how easily they could be formulated as questions. For example, something about: Social media, big data analysis, manipulating public opinion (As we became politically integrated without consenting, so did a few big tech firms usurp enormous power without many realising it) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, rockerboy said: Wrong ! Medical treatment is ultimately the decision of the healthcare provider, not the individual. If medical treatment is offered to you (it can be denied to you), you can decide to rubberstamp the treatment or not (even that depends!). Then theres the grey area of DNR which is decided upon by relatives Wrong again ! This is a common Med Student ethics discussion topic - Abortion is such a case. The decision of healthcare providers is bound by ethics of "what is best" which takes in account a patient's wishes but the medical treatment decision is not solely bound to it Read my original post that you quoted... context is everything... https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/210294-brexit-what-happens-next-thread-multiple-merged-threads/&do=findComment&comment=1103550438 "Then theres the grey area of DNR which is decided upon by relatives"... Not when you have a properly written and legally binding Advance Decision, as I have. To make it crystal clear, the ultimate decision on medical treatment lies with the patient. No consent, no treatment, and that includes life saving treatment! Edited March 10, 2020 by Bruce Banner Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 52 minutes ago, longgone said: Moggy would reap the benefits which ever way the wind blows. you don`t get to wear a double breasted suit for nothing. He'll be 101, so he'll probably be dead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: Read my original post that you quoted... context is everything... https://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/index.php?/topic/210294-brexit-what-happens-next-thread-multiple-merged-threads/&do=findComment&comment=1103550438 "Then theres the grey area of DNR which is decided upon by relatives"... Not when you have a properly written and legally binding Advance Decision, as I have. For the love of g*d - This is what you say "Medical treatment is ultimately the decision of the individual, normally based on the advice of their attending physician." The context is this - you don't understand the meaning of "Medical Treatment" https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/medical-treatment Medical treatment means the provision, withholding, or withdrawal of any health care, medical procedure, including artificially provided nourishment and hydration, surgery, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, or service to maintain, diagnose, treat, or provide for a patient's physical or mental health or personal care. Medical treatment means treatment, other than first aid, administered by a physician or registered Maybe what you should have said is something alongthe lines of this "Being treated medically is ultimately the decision of the individual, normally based on the advice of their attending physician." This is the thing - Its no wonder you like the idea of the EU, you just don;t understand the finer points of what it means Edited March 10, 2020 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 52 minutes ago, crouch said: The referendum was simply in or out. The details are to be settled by our representatives, of which the ERG are a group. It's hardly surprising that there were arguments in parliament subsequent to the referendum but that doesn't mean the referendum itself was ill defined; in fact in view of what has happened, it's arguable that the referendum was quite adequately defined. But if the referendum had been run in a Swiss style, with far more detail required for the outcome, would people have still voted to leave? I'm virtually certain the outcome would have been the other way. And now, in reality, we have to make those decisions anyway, so why not let the public vote on them up-front? Clearly you're going to support a binary non-detailed question, with "details ironed out later", because that won the vote for the leave side. I don't think it is the best way to run a democratic vote. People should have more nuance. Certainly Dominic Cummings, the man behind the leave campaign, was very happy with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, dugsbody said: But if the referendum had been run in a Swiss style, with far more detail required for the outcome, would people have still voted to leave? I'm virtually certain the outcome would have been the other way. And now, in reality, we have to make those decisions anyway, so why not let the public vote on them up-front? No one knows the answer to that. You may be right or you may be wrong. Animus against the EU was of long standing so I don't think you can assume that Remain would have won it. 4 minutes ago, dugsbody said: Clearly you're going to support a binary non-detailed question, with "details ironed out later", because that won the vote for the leave side. I don't think it is the best way to run a democratic vote. People should have more nuance. You're wrong. I think this is a complicated issue, as are many others, and,after all, we never had a vote on joining and were lied to on an industrial scale about what joining implied. Our system remains that of representative democracy whereby we delegate these issues to our representatives who have the time and duty to consider these issues in all aspects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 On 10/03/2020 at 19:05, rockerboy said: For the love of g*d - This is what you say "Medical treatment is ultimately the decision of the individual, normally based on the advice of their attending physician." The context is this - you don't understand the meaning of "Medical Treatment" https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/medical-treatment Medical treatment means the provision, withholding, or withdrawal of any health care, medical procedure, including artificially provided nourishment and hydration, surgery, cardiopulmonary resuscitation, or service to maintain, diagnose, treat, or provide for a patient's physical or mental health or personal care. Medical treatment means treatment, other than first aid, administered by a physician or registered Maybe what you should have said is something alongthe lines of this "Being treated medically is ultimately the decision of the individual, normally based on the advice of their attending physician." This is the thing - Its no wonder you like the idea of the EU, you just don;t understand the finer points of what it means This is absolutely my last attempt at explaining the bleeding obvious to you. This is what I said.. Quote That's a different question. Medical treatment is ultimately the decision of the individual, normally based on the advice of their attending physician. Medical quarantine may be imposed upon individuals having, or suspected of having, infectious diseases to protect the general population and is imposed by individual sovereign states. I don't know what advice the EU is currently giving to the governments of their member states. Surely it is obvious that in this context Medical treatment is the decision of the individual, ie not compulsory, whereas Medical quarantine is mandatory and legally enforceable. https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/health/nhs-healthcare/nhs-patients-rights/#h-right-to-refuse-treatment https://www.bma.org.uk/advice/employment/ethics/medical-students-ethics-toolkit/6-consent-to-treatment-capacity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 20 minutes ago, crouch said: lied to on an industrial scale about what joining implied Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) Brexit - with everyone going on about borders - this is a REAL border issue - and its happening on Europe's borders right today https://time.com/5800116/eu-refugees-turkey-greece-border/ What will solve it? - Nothing Whilst Italy is "shutting" down to contain Coronavirus, we are all doomed to watch BBC/SKY News show a horrific human catastrophy of infected migrants dying in the fields surrounding Europe's border. Its probably the real reason why Erdogan wants the migrants to leave Turkey Those troops are there to stop infected people.....which in hindsight, will be looked upon as a disgusting indictment of all things Europe and Turkey - people dying on their borders from a flu, floating in rivers and buried in woods while we all look away...... What has changed is the language. For all the bloc’s failings at the height of the crisis, speeches usually touched on the importance of protecting those in need and upholding the E.U.’s moral values. Now, it is the cold, hard language of war and security – it is the borders and a nebulous ‘European way of life’ which need protecting, not people. “The system is dehumanizing these people — this is what Europe has purposefully decided to do,” says Marco Sandrone, a field coordinator for Doctors Without Borders on the Greek island of Lesbos, where an increase in arrivals is making a dire situation even worse. Edited March 10, 2020 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
crouch Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, Dorkins said: Did I deny there were lies told in 2016? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 hours ago, Bruce Banner said: More piffle from rocketboy . The UK farmers screwed up big time, turning herbivores into cannibals, utterly revolting. Nothing in mainland Europe compares to the level of incompetence displayed by the UK farming industry. With images of massive bovine funeral pyres being broadcast all over Europe, what choice did the EU have but to impose a lengthy ban. Switzerland had more cases of bse than the uk - sorry disproved you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 53 minutes ago, crouch said: You're wrong. I think this is a complicated issue, as are many others, and,after all, we never had a vote on joining and were lied to on an industrial scale about what joining implied. Our system remains that of representative democracy whereby we delegate these issues to our representatives who have the time and duty to consider these issues in all aspects. As I said, you favour a simple binary vote because it allowed your side to game that system to win with relentless lying. And then you call that representative "democracy". I don't like lies, of any sort. If truth is optional, then anything goes. And we might as well have chaos rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 3 minutes ago, dugsbody said: As I said, you favour a simple binary vote because it allowed your side to game that system to win with relentless lying. And then you call that representative "democracy". I don't like lies, of any sort. If truth is optional, then anything goes. And we might as well have chaos rule. The vote was framed in such a way as to shut the leavers up- it back fired completely. Whose fault was that. The original referendum in 1975 did not need anything other than 50% in favour so why change the rules? Edited March 10, 2020 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosmin Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 5 minutes ago, crouch said: I think this is a complicated issue, as are many others, and,after all, we never had a vote on joining and were lied to on an industrial scale about what joining implied. Did they actually lie, or did they not know what would change later? 17 minutes ago, crouch said: Our system remains that of representative democracy whereby we delegate these issues to our representatives who have the time and duty to consider these issues in all aspects. MPs did not have the time to gain the necessary understanding of the EU and issues around leaving or remaining. There was a short window between the announcement of the referendum and the start of campaigning. Some MPs probably knew a fair amount about the EU. But a lot of them probably knew very little and didn't feel very motivated to give it much thought as they expected remain to win and the issue to recede in importance. This isn't the only issue on which they are ignorant. But it's the only one they've been called upon to consider sweeping changes without advice. It's probably rarer for a Chancellor to know much about economics etc. but they have advisers who can help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 33 minutes ago, rockerboy said: Those troops are there to stop infected people.....which in hindsight, will be looked upon as a disgusting indictment of all things Europe and Turkey I hope you're writing to your MP to send help and ship the migrants over here. Anything to make political capital against Europe huh? You guys are so filled with hate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dugsbody Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: The vote was framed in such a way as to shut the leavers up- it back fired completely. Whose fault was that. The original referendum in 1975 did not need anything other than 50% in favour so why change the rules? I'm not interested in the past vote nor am I interested in what Piggy Cameron did. The referendum was badly run and favoured the side who lied relentlessly and purposely chose to convey mixed messages in order to harvest voters with contradictor opinions on what brexit meant. It was the opposite of how I think democracy should be. You're happy with it because you won. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said: Switzerland had more cases of bse than the uk - sorry disproved you My mistake, I should have said EU rather than mainland Europe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pig Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 2 hours ago, crouch said: It's done and dusted to people who think they can predict the future; to us lesser mortals - no. Still keeping this up ? If you really believed it you wouldn't be able to cross a road. 2 hours ago, crouch said: This is the background noise du jour. Of course, the apples that fell downwards you ignored in your equations 2 hours ago, crouch said: And I don't want Brexit to escape scrutiny; it's just that by and large I don't think you'll be able to scrutinise it in any meaningful sense. Lol this is obviously untrue. Lets call it rhetorical background noise - its more interesting to understand why you're so fanatical about Brexit. 2 hours ago, crouch said: Twenty years is a reasonable time to judge success or failure but, give it another year or so, and nobody will care either way; Brexit will just fade into the background. Bearing in mind this was directly addressed in the previous post I think this response would struggle to pass a Turing test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
debtlessmanc Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 40 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: My mistake, I should have said EU rather than mainland Europe. Beef sales went down more in other eu countries than in the uk: Why? Well at the time everyone said that they did not trust the EU to tell the truth about their food. Edited March 10, 2020 by debtlessmanc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said: Switzerland had more cases of bse than the uk - sorry disproved you Edited March 10, 2020 by Dorkins Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockerboy Posted March 10, 2020 Share Posted March 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, dugsbody said: Anything to make political capital against Europe huh? You guys are so filled with hate. Nope - turn the TV on - its called unbiassed news and its happening right now All of those who think the EU is the greatest and best - Remember what you see - The EU is just another power construct, except its leaders are those you cannot vote out. How'd like them apples sunshine? Edited March 10, 2020 by rockerboy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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