Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[Dorkins]

4 minutes ago, crouch said:

I did not say it was not distinct; I said it means we are "effectively" in the EU. The EEA was largely created to extend SM membership to non EU countries but membership of the SM means FOM and that is not acceptable.

It may not be acceptable to you, but you are not the only one who has a say in this.

[crouch]

13 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

So if the government ends up taking the UK into EFTA without a vote you will be fine with that?

We voted to leave the EU. If they believe that EFTA is the best way to honour that result then - yes.

Edited March 26, 2019 by crouch

[crouch]

1 minute ago, Dorkins said:

It may not be acceptable to you, but you are not the only one who has a say in this.

Of course not; and if most people want FOM then I'm fine with that. These are just my views.

[Dorkins]

4 minutes ago, crouch said:

We're having all these issues because a huge number of people and the elites do not want to leave the EU. All of the maneuvering is to try and stay within the EU without appearing to want to overturn the referendum result - which is precisely what these people do want.

I don't disagree, there is a huge amount of maneuvering and attempts to rig the system on both sides. If the process is illegitimate the outcome will not stick. That is why the result of the first referendum must be enacted (withdrawal agreement passed, UK leaves the EU) and then the 3 available endpoints must be put to the electorate on a level pegging. I am hopeful that eventually all sides will get tired/bored of trying to exclude other options from the ballot paper or try to push for a Brexit endpoint for which they have no mandate.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Dorkins

[slawek]

21 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

The constitution matters, votes should be enacted. Opinion polls have no constitutional status.

The UK does not have really a constitution, which I think is unacceptable. Legally the referendum was advisory.  Even if it were mandatory to implement it, any future act of the parliament can override this. 

What matters is democracy, what people want. By this i mean now, not three years ago.  It is important to act on the current wish of people, not try to block it, otherwise we are not a democracy anymore but a tyranny where a minority using violence try to impose its will on the whole country.  

[crouch]

7 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

I don't disagree, there is a huge amount of maneuvering and attempts to rig the system on both sides. If the process is illegitimate the outcome will not stick. That is why the result of the first referendum must be enacted (withdrawal agreement passed, UK leaves the EU) and then the 3 available endpoints must be put to the electorate on a level pegging. I am hopeful that eventually all sides will get tired/bored of trying to exclude other options from the ballot paper or try to push for a Brexit endpoint for which they have no mandate.

If the WA is enacted then we may not leave the EU for some years. I think when push comes to shove the backstop will not be a problem. Another reason is that I think the EU will have far bigger problems on its plate by then and the UK will be a most unwelcome distraction.

Also we are likely to have a new PM and government before we actually leave the EU - I think this is a certainty. I don't say they will ignore the PD but the negotiations may be quite different than they would have been under May. If we get a clear result the WA will give closure to actually leaving and the government will then have power to negotiate the future relationship. I can't see this being put to the people nor do I think it needs to be if we have a strong enough government - which admittedly we don't have and may not have.

[GrizzlyDave]

56 minutes ago, crouch said:

Leavers. We're all racist bigots and FOM was one of the main reasons for leaving the EU.

 

EFTA  has access to the SM via menbership of the EEA. The EEA effectively means we are in the EU. Being in the EEA means that we have to accept FOM.

We would be a rule taker and it wouldn't be Brexit at all. 

Of course the decision to leave the EU was taken in principle in 2016. If we regain a functioning government in the future it's the job of that government to define the future relationship. We may get there yet but obviously not with the current set of incompetents.

FOM can be moderated somewhat by domestic policy (chucking out people who are no longer entitled to be here, setting up a registration scheme before you can do anything of note, etc).

Being part of EEA means some bit not all EU legislation applies. How much? Around 25% of EU legislation. http://doortofreedom.uk/eea-efta-acquis-proportion-6-5-9-21-28-75-or-80 EFTA has a voice in policy, and there is a separate EFTA court.

It’s worth considering.

[Sledgehead]

5 minutes ago, slawek said:

What matters is democracy, what people want. By this i mean now, not three years ago.  It is important to act on the current wish of people, not try to block it, otherwise we are not a democracy anymore but a tyranny where a minority using violence try to impose its will on the whole country.  

But you can never know the will of the people now. So your idea is hopeless and must be discounted.

[winkie]

33 minutes ago, crouch said:

We're having all these issues because a huge number of people and the elites do not want to leave the EU. All of the maneuvering is to try and stay within the EU without appearing to want to overturn the referendum result - which is precisely what these people do want.

Elites......excuse me, I know many people who live and work in Europe, they certainly are not wealthy or fancy.....the people I talk to have lost confidence in the conservative party, they have created lots of pain for many people.....and prospects after having left do not look good, just creates conflict and differences..... shooting themselves in the foot...Ouch.

Edited March 26, 2019 by winkie

[slawek]

Leavers who changed their mind or think about this, you are not alone

https://twitter.com/RemainerNow

 

[Bruce Banner]

1 minute ago, Sledgehead said:

But you can never know the will of the people now. So your idea is hopeless and must be discounted.

Yes you can, just ask them!

[slawek]

3 minutes ago, Sledgehead said:

But you can never know the will of the people now. So your idea is hopeless and must be discounted.

You can use opinion polls to cheaply test the indication of the current will of the people. It is then a political decision of the parliament to act on this data and trigger a new referendum or not.  If the parliament fails to adequately respond then the people will be able to force their will in the next election.  

[thecrashingisles]

1 hour ago, Dorkins said:

No, it really doesn't. EEA membership is distinctly different from EU membership: no CAP, no CFP, out of the customs union so able to negotiate own free trade agreements etc.

How do you solve the Irish border with no customs union or CAP?

[Dorkins]

Parliament is working on a way to get around its standard yes/no voting procedures to allow more than 2 options to be put up against each other in the indicative votes:

 

A taste of the 3 way single transferable vote referendum to come?

[Dorkins]

2 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

How do you solve the Irish border with no customs union or CAP?

You don't. If the UK leaves either the single market or the customs union there will be a border in Ireland.

[thecrashingisles]

Just now, Dorkins said:

You don't. If the UK leaves either the single market or the customs union there will be a border in Ireland.

Therefore a pure Norway option is not negotiable with the EU and not on offer.

[crouch]

32 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said:

Being part of EEA means some bit not all EU legislation applies. How much? Around 25% of EU legislation. http://doortofreedom.uk/eea-efta-acquis-proportion-6-5-9-21-28-75-or-80 EFTA has a voice in policy, and there is a separate EFTA court.

It’s worth considering.

80% of our economy is services.If we were in the EEA we would be subject to all Brussels rules on services without having a say in the rules.

These are all trade offs; maybe it's a runner; maybe not.

Edited March 26, 2019 by crouch

[GrizzlyDave]

1 minute ago, crouch said:

80% of our economy is services.If we were in the EEA we would be subject to all Brussels rules on services without having a say in the rules.

These are all trade offs; maybe it's a runner; maybe not.

Indeed, they are trade offs.

[copydude]

9 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said:

Yes you can, just ask them!

Actually, I don't disagree with you, Bruce. Referenda results probably should have a fixed term of validity. A GE is only valid for a fixed period. Consumers get a month cooling off period on many transactions. But you can imagine the protest applying such an idea now and retrospectively.

But the here and now is that the Government has failed to enact the result of the referendum, three years ago. It shouid resign. 

[crouch]

28 minutes ago, winkie said:

Elites......excuse me, I know many people who live and work in Europe, they certainly are not wealthy or fancy.....the people I talk to have lost confidence in the conservative party, they have created lots of pain for many people.....and prospects after having left do not look good, just creates conflict and differences..... shooting themselves in the foot...Ouch.

I quite agree; this matter will have echos down a good number of years.

[Dorkins]

7 minutes ago, thecrashingisles said:

Therefore a pure Norway option is not negotiable with the EU and not on offer.

Norway was on Barnier's slide of the Brexit options.

[pig]

5 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1. Objective discussion rather than lazy scapegoating.

2. Not everyone agrees with you and I'm not going to make an exception for your sensitivities on a public forum. Other posters respond to points but you continuously fail to do so.

3. I asked you a question about your frequent use of brown people in your leavers are racist, xenophobes etc. narratives and you are offended?  

I find it peculiar that you flip flop on the topic of racism. From last year:

 

 

 

Your other peculiarity is that of copy pasting acres which do feck all to support your oddly whimsical  ‘narrative’s 

Tbh I think this has all to do with you not being able to debate with integrity the problem with xenophobia/racism/ethno-nationalism  that has dogged Leave from the start.

[Dorkins]

2 minutes ago, copydude said:

But the here and now is that the Government has failed to enact the result of the referendum, three years ago. It shouid resign. 

The government has genuinely tried to enact the referendum result, but the "pro Brexit" ERG MPs keep voting against leaving the EU.

[Steppenpig]

5 hours ago, MonsieurCopperCrutch said:

Who is Paul?

It's really not funny or interesting. You need to get help.

[Noallegiance]

3 minutes ago, Dorkins said:

The government has genuinely tried to enact the referendum result, but the "pro Brexit" ERG MPs keep voting against leaving the EU.

Did someone actually write this?