Bruce Banner Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 6 minutes ago, MarkG said: How often, exactly, do you plan to hold referendums just to see whether people have changed their minds? Every day? Every week? Every month? Every year? Remainers want to keep voting until they get a 'Remain' vote, at which point Britons will never be allowed to vote again. Ever. We know. It's what the EU always does. Besides, why would anyone trust a second vote? Britain has a government willing to destroy its own party and risk civil war to remain in the EU even though people voted to leave. And we're seriously supposed to believe they won't rig a referendum? I'm honestly quite shocked that they didn't rig the last one. I can only assume that, like the Democrats in the 2016 election, they didn't think they could lose. So you're saying that people may never, ever, change their minds. Pathetic argument! Let's apply this to other things.. Divorce... You made your bed, now lie in it, tough titties! Crime... Yes someone else has admitted to the crime but you must still serve your sentence. Abortion... The Pope is against it, enough said, suck it up! I could go on but what's the point as my words just fall on deaf ears. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cock-eyed octopus Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: So you're saying that people may never, ever, change their minds. Pathetic argument! Let's apply this to other things.. Divorce... You made your bed, now lie in it, tough titties! Crime... Yes someone else has admitted to the crime but you must still serve your sentence. Abortion... The Pope is against it, enough said, suck it up! I could go on but what's the point as my words just fall on deaf ears. So, Bruce, how often should we have a referendum? Should we believe it anyway? After all, we were told the first was definitive & the result would be enacted. No deal dependency. Just remain in the EU or leave the EU. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Bruce Banner said: could go on but what's the point as my words just fall on deaf ears. No, it's just that not everyone is as convinced as you that the public have changed their minds. Or that a 2nd ref wouldn't be catastrophic for the notion of representative democracy...or that there's no agreed question anyone thinks would pass...or that we'd have more months of turmoil, disharmony and uncertainty with no guarantee of things improving...or that time is tight before elections for the EU MEPs...and so on.... Edited January 1, 2019 by thehowler Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 There are so many sensible reasons to not have a 2nd ref... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, thehowler said: No, it's just that not everyone is as convinced as you that the public have changed their minds. Or that a 2nd ref wouldn't be catastrophic for the notion of representative democracy...or that there's no agreed question anyone thinks would pass...or that we'd have more months of turmoil, disharmony and uncertainty with no guarantee of things improving...or that time is tight before elections for the EU MEPs...and so on.... Then ask them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 On reflection, I am now seriously worried that May's deal wrangling could drag into April, with emergency measures coming in as an extra incentive for MPs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thehowler Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, Bruce Banner said: Then ask them! We did, and they're still waiting to see if we're going to do anything about it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Just now, thehowler said: On reflection, I am now seriously worried that May's deal wrangling could drag into April, with emergency measures coming in as an extra incentive for MPs.... May is on an ego trip, disastrous PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Just now, thehowler said: We did, and they're still waiting to see if we're going to do anything about it! No, they're waiting for the opportunity to change their minds! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Bruce, There is a legal precedent in the GFA for a referendum (at the NI Secretaries discretion) no sooner than once every seven years (if the vote is a no to reunification). See bottom of page 4. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf On that precedent, personally I would be happy to have an in/out EU referendum in June 2023. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 minute ago, GrizzlyDave said: Bruce, There is a legal precedent in the GFA for a referendum (at the NI Secretaries discretion) no sooner than once every seven years (if the vote is a no to reunification). See bottom of page 4. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf On that precedent, personally I would be happy to have an in/out EU referendum in June 2023. I bet you would but the majority of the people have changed their minds and want a 2nd referendum now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 1 hour ago, GrizzlyDave said: Having a second in/out Referendum makes an absolute mockery of democracy. It is an insult to all those who voted in the first referendum. By all means have a vote on the type of brexit. But the decision to leave has been made. You're right, the decision to leave has been made. I fully expect this to be implemented in 3 months' time when the UK ceases to be a member of the EU. The first referendum did not say "and also if we leave we can never vote to rejoin". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 11 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Bruce, There is a legal precedent in the GFA for a referendum (at the NI Secretaries discretion) no sooner than once every seven years (if the vote is a no to reunification). See bottom of page 4. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/136652/agreement.pdf On that precedent, personally I would be happy to have an in/out EU referendum in June 2023. 7 years, 5 years, not that different. My guess is 2nd referendum in 2021. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 3 minutes ago, Dorkins said: You're right, the decision to leave has been made. I fully expect this to be implemented in 3 months' time when the UK ceases to be a member of the EU. The first referendum did not say "and also if we leave we can never vote to rejoin". Of course not, happy to have a rejoin referendum. But not for a good while (we need to live leave to have an informed view about it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZeroSumGame Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 26 minutes ago, thehowler said: On reflection, I am now seriously worried that May's deal wrangling could drag into April, with emergency measures coming in as an extra incentive for MPs.... IMHO Maybot is playing a game of chicken. Just watched some talking heads on Bloomberg, and they expect 11th hour shenanigans. #AbsoluteShambles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorkins Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 2 minutes ago, GrizzlyDave said: Of course not, happy to have a rejoin referendum. But not for a good while (we need to live leave to have an informed view about it). Well that's what you want, but the timing of the second referendum is wide open as there's no process to say when it can/can't happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 13 minutes ago, Dorkins said: 7 years, 5 years, not that different. My guess is 2nd referendum in 2021. That would actually suit me fine as hopefully, if we rejoin, we will then be in the Euro and Schengen and have closer integration than we have now, thus limiting the authority of UK governments which, since 1997, have been disastrous. My argument for a second referendum now is not for my benefit, but because I believe the people are being railroaded into something that they do not want, May's deal in particular! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Banner Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 11 minutes ago, ZeroSumGame said: IMHO Maybot is playing a game of chicken. Just watched some talking heads on Bloomberg, and they expect 11th hour shenanigans. #AbsoluteShambles 11th hour shenanigans are a certainty in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
localhero1983 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 2 hours ago, MarkG said: How often, exactly, do you plan to hold referendums just to see whether people have changed their minds? Every day? Every week? Every month? Every year? Remainers want to keep voting until they get a 'Remain' vote, at which point Britons will never be allowed to vote again. Ever. We know. It's what the EU always does. Besides, why would anyone trust a second vote? Britain has a government willing to destroy its own party and risk civil war to remain in the EU even though people voted to leave. And we're seriously supposed to believe they won't rig a referendum? I'm honestly quite shocked that they didn't rig the last one. I can only assume that, like the Democrats in the 2016 election, they didn't think they could lose. Liam Fox has already stated that is a 2nd referendum did take place and Remain won he would the next morning start campaigning for a 3rd referendum, where does it end Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
localhero1983 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Dorkins said: You're right, the decision to leave has been made. I fully expect this to be implemented in 3 months' time when the UK ceases to be a member of the EU. The first referendum did not say "and also if we leave we can never vote to rejoin". I think this is by far the best idea, leave the EU and when it becomes clear that it will not work then have a 2nd referendum to return Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smash Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 6 minutes ago, localhero1983 said: I think this is by far the best idea, leave the EU and when it becomes clear that it will not work then have a 2nd referendum to return The key advantage of this is that the UK "gets brexit out of its system" so to speak. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
localhero1983 Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 minute ago, smash said: The key advantage of this is that the UK "gets brexit out of its system" so to speak. Exactly, those demanding a 2nd referendum right now just cannot get it into their heads how divisive that would be, it's all about what they want and stuff the consequences. Everyone gets what they want with a full on proper Brexit, when it fails and it will, then campaign to get us back in. Should Brexit flourish then a lot of us will need to eat a lot of humble pie and even Remainers will be happy at that point, everyone is a winner whatever the outcome Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smash Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, ****-eyed octopus said: So, Bruce, how often should we have a referendum? Should we believe it anyway? After all, we were told the first was definitive & the result would be enacted. No deal dependency. Just remain in the EU or leave the EU. You either think referendums are a good way to run a country or not, presumably you DO. This argumentation you deploy here is basically; But my chosen referendum is the most super special snowflake that ever fell to the ground on christmas day......... way of arguing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Bruce Banner said: 11th hour shenanigans are a certainty in my opinion. I’m perfectly happy with 11th hour shenanigans. The EU is famous for it. But this is at odds with the HOC wanting a final say well in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrizzlyDave Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Bruce Banner said: That would actually suit me fine as hopefully, if we rejoin, we will then be in the Euro and Schengen and have closer integration than we have now, thus limiting the authority of UK governments which, since 1997, have been disastrous. My argument for a second referendum now is not for my benefit, but because I believe the people are being railroaded into something that they do not want, May's deal in particular! My prediction is that once we are out the appetite to join erodes over time. And we never rejoin. Like Norway falling from around 40% to less than 20% wanting to join over the last 15 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norway–European_Union_relations Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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