The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One

[Steppenpig]

Although economic performance and industrial relations had been pretty erratic since the war, it was joining the EU that wiped out our manufacturing base and our trading with our former customers. It was during the 70s that the UK was described as the "sick man of europe" (after it joined the EU) until the mid to late 80s, at the height of thatcherism.

Germany became the sick man in the 90s when it was crippled by reunification and euro membership. Only the strongest can survive in the EU.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sick_man_of_Europe

[council dweller]

There`s another poll on Reuters ...

2% up for GO.

If any more bombs go off them surely the risk tremblers must be getting damp underwear ?

[billybong]

^

From the wikipedia link it looks as if most every country has been the sick man of europe at one time or another and some simultaneously. The eu doesn't seem to be a reliably healthy place for any economy.

The UK was indeed called that by some in the 70s but if any country was put forward by the media as even sicker in those days it was Italy (like Germany offically defeated in World War 2) - whether Italy was really sicker than the UK in those days is another matter (with hindsight considering how prone the media is to misinformation for its own reasons) but that's the way it was portrayed. Of course there were poorer countries in europe but Italy seemed to warrant special attention in that regard. Germany even in the 70s was always portrayed as having a far better economy than the UK and something to be aspired to.

Despite well over 40 years in the EEC(Common Market)/eu the UK is still poorer than Germany and even deeper in debt and now only slightly ahead of Italy in terms of GDP per capita.

Edited March 23, 2016 by billybong

[campervanman]

Higher energy bills outside the EU

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35855869

Of course it's all scaremongering according to the outers. The UK as a stand alone country would have just as much bargaining power with Russia as the EU has with 10 x the population. Bonkers.

Familiar patrern being followed here, the Remain campaign commisions research that highlights the consequences of leaving resulting in the Out campaign getting out of their pram and screaming project fear. It is getting silly now, maybe the out campaign want the debate to be restricted only to stuff like the EU costs £x per day, German car companies won't let the UK have tariffs etc etc so the public can only hear the Daily Express version of the facts just as they have been spoonfed for the past 10 years. Well tough, from now to June 23rd there will be two sides to the debate.

[XswampyX]

Another BBC Brexit 'bias' row: 'Clear evidence' of Beeb 'in favour' of remaining in EU

A MAJOR investigation has revealed that the BBC coverage of the EU referendum is heavily biased towards the Remain camp.

F**k the BBC!

The investigation by News-watch, an organisation that has been monitoring the BBC for impartiality for the past sixteen years, analysed items focusing on the EU referendum in 40 editions of Newsnight, between 16 January and 12 March.

The BBC, which is funded by the license fee payer, is required by its Charter to offer impartial coverage.

However, the analysis of 25 feature items about the EU referendum on its flagship news program has revealed that it has given twice as much space to pro-EU supporters.

In an astonishing finding News-watch has observed that in one-one interviews on the referendum there have been 12 supporters of Remain compared to only six who were in favour of leaving the EU.

What a surprise!

Source :- https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/653836/BBC-biased-Brexit-EU-referendum-Newsnight-Question-Time

The BBC has been accused of "dishonesty" in its reporting of the EU referendum for using the word "Europe" in place of "European Union".

In a letter to the corporation's top bosses Nigel Farage, the Ukip leader and Leave.EU campaign backer, called on the broadcaster to stop using "Europe" as shorthand in discussions about the referendum, because it benefits the In campaign.

Private polling suggests that the phrase European Union is toxic to voters, the Telegraph understands, making it beneficial for pro-EU campaigners to use Europe instead of EU.

Source :- http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11941330/BBC-accused-of-dishonesty-and-bias-over-EU-referendum-coverage.html

The BBC has a ‘deeply concerning’ pro-European bias and has ‘fallen down severely’ in its obligation to provide impartial coverage of the issue, MPs say today.

The European Scrutiny Committee says the corporation does not give enough airtime to those who believe Britain should leave the European Union or that there should be a referendum on membership.

The MPs also criticised the BBC’s director-general, Lord Hall, for failing in his role as the corporation’s editor-in-chief, after he turned down an invitation to give evidence to the committee in Parliament four times.

Source :- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3010271/MPs-attack-BBC-biased-EU-reporting-Corporation-accused-falling-severely-obligation-provide-impartial-coverage.html

[robo1968]

Higher energy bills outside the EU

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35855869

Of course it's all scaremongering according to the outers. The UK as a stand alone country would have just as much bargaining power with Russia as the EU has with 10 x the population. Bonkers.

Familiar patrern being followed here, the Remain campaign commisions research that highlights the consequences of leaving resulting in the Out campaign getting out of their pram and screaming project fear. It is getting silly now, maybe the out campaign want the debate to be restricted only to stuff like the EU costs £x per day, German car companies won't let the UK have tariffs etc etc so the public can only hear the Daily Express version of the facts just as they have been spoonfed for the past 10 years. Well tough, from now to June 23rd there will be two sides to the debate.

BBC.....

You do make me laugh with your quote sources

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/idUKKCN0WO2MN?irpc=932

Edited March 24, 2016 by robo1968

[billybong]

^ reuters link

Sterling came under selling pressure following Tuesday's Brussels bombings on concern that such attacks could turn British voters off membership of the club they joined in 1973 and voted to stay in by 67 percent to 33 in a 1975 referendum.

In 1975 they didn't vote to join the eu "club" they voted to join the EEC(Common Market) "club". The vote in June is to do with all the massive changes to the rules since then in addition to the original rules. It's not the same now by any stretch of the imagination - it hasn't been the same for a long time.

Edited March 24, 2016 by billybong

[geezer466]

This isn't another Churchill false dawn is it...?

Uh oh! Source :- http://biography.yourdictionary.com/john-major

The ERM! What's that?

How did it go?

Not so good then.

Yeah, he loves the EU!

It looks like he says one thing, but does another.

Need I go on?

Source :- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Major

I recall the time of the ERM and when the UK crashed out.......

It was a few Months after the 1992 general election which gave Major a reasonable majority. The next election of course was not until 1997 a full 5 years later.

The Tories poll ratings never recovered from Black Wednesday not because the proles didn't like us falling out of the ERM but the fact that in the charge to defend Sterling interest rates went up to an unprecedented 15%... People simply didn't forget, many lost their houses as a result and values back then were not at stupid levels as they are now.

That hurt a lot of people back then..And of course it allowed the terrible twins Blair and Brown in probably the worst thing to happen to the UK since WW2.

Perversely maybe a high dose of interest rates is what we need today.

[billybong]

I recall the time of the ERM and when the UK crashed out.......

It was a few Months after the 1992 general election which gave Major a reasonable majority. The next election of course was not until 1997 a full 5 years later.

The Tories poll ratings never recovered from Black Wednesday not because the proles didn't like us falling out of the ERM but the fact that in the charge to defend Sterling interest rates went up to an unprecedented 15%... People simply didn't forget, many lost their houses as a result and values back then were not at stupid levels as they are now.

That hurt a lot of people back then..And of course it allowed the terrible twins Blair and Brown in probably the worst thing to happen to the UK since WW2.

Perversely maybe a high dose of interest rates is what we need today.

Almost in an instant the Conservatives completely lost what remained of their reputation for competence in running the economy when all that happened.

Before that they had seemed better than tax, borrow and spend Labour in running the economy - not after that as they were clearly just as bad and after that debacle on the economy their problems were then compounded with the daily revelations of sleaze right up to the 1997 general election. Then the UK got NuLabour - indeed probably the worst thing to happen to the UK since WW2.

The Conservatives have done nothing in the 6 years since 2010 during their latest stint to regain that reputation for economic competence - quite the opposite in fact and these days they just come across more and more as a bunch of stopgap incompetents and out and out self serving opportunistic spivs and liars wrecking the UK economy some more.

Mind you the other lots are no better.

Edited March 26, 2016 by billybong

[campervanman]

Now they have resorted to making up names

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35906110

Still the former boss of Equitable Life is still on board.

[geezer466]

Now they have resorted to making up names

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35906110

Still the former boss of Equitable Life is still on board.

6 of one half dozen of the other...

Both sides were at it....

[billybong]

People are still waiting for the biggie with an open letter from Gordon (the Devastator of economies) Brown in favour of staying in with a list of promises along with a schedule of action if people vote for In.

A sort of "coming together" (again) letter also with Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Darling, Corbyn, McDonnell, Clegg, Cable, Miliband, Balls, Farron and Kramer etc.

Edited March 27, 2016 by billybong

[geezer466]

People are still waiting for the biggie with an open letter from Gordon (the Devastator of economies) Brown in favour of staying in with a list of promises along with a schedule of action if people vote for In.

A sort of "coming together" (again) letter also with Cameron, Osborne, Blair, Darling, Corbyn, McDonnell, Clegg, Cable, Miliband, Balls, Farron and Kramer etc.

Corbyn and McDonnell are life long outs.....

They only support in to keep Labour party unity.....

McDonnell used to be my constituency MP some years back and I knew him reasonably well. You should have heard his opinions on the EU back then... Language not far removed from the leave brigade in this thread...

[billybong]

Corbyn and McDonnell are life long outs.....

They only support in to keep Labour party unity.....

McDonnell used to be my constituency MP some years back and I knew him reasonably well. You should have heard his opinions on the EU back then... Language not far removed from the leave brigade in this thread...

Indeed I did read that the Labour Outers consider Corbyn and McDonnell to have betrayed the Out part of the Labour party. I included Corbyn and McDonnell because their current stance (just before the referendum when it might actually matter) is In.

It's a measure of those politicians touting the In vote and the true value they put on the interests of the UK regarding their true opinions on the eu (apparently - as it's difficult to know what any of them actually believe apart from serving themselves). One just cannot rely on any of them.

Why would anyone believe any of their election promises.

Edited March 28, 2016 by billybong

[Oily]

I was in the middle of a debate yesterday with more than a dozen people and one loud mouth. I came away looking at the coming referendum with different and more optimistic eyes. It was probably a 50 50 discussion on whether to leave or not with the one loud mouth and over opinionated bloke let it be known that most of the vote out people were closet racists etc.

When ever I see anti euro types on the TV or media you always get this air of they are right wing racist nutcases. At the moment the polls are probably even, but how many I wonder will say they want to stay in pub;lic and vote no on the day. Just like so many people are ashamed to admit they vote Tory.

This will definitely be a factor; many people will not admit to supporting Brexit for fear of being thought of being negative/ small minded/ ukip/ racist etc. A similar thing happened during the Scottish referendum. The nationalistic fervour is still so strong up here that you're best advised to stay off the subject of Scottish independence in public. If you mention you're quite happy to remain British you're made to feel like a traitor or an idiot. The SNP supporters, on the other hand, are unrestrained in the public expression of their views. It's deeply unpleasant nationalism of the worst kind. I believe the silent majority of Scots do not support nationalism but this won't be reflected in the polls. The English must be fed up with the arrogant winging of the SNP (most of us are too!)

[campervanman]

A business view:

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKKCN0WU0HK

Disaster plan in place. Its ok though because the UK will be able to negotiate an EU deal that has taken Canada 8 years in a couple of weeks, the pound and the economy won't crash and anyway German car makers will make sure that everything will work out just fine.

[campervanman]

Indeed I did read that the Labour Outers consider Corbyn and McDonnell to have betrayed the Out part of the Labour party. I included Corbyn and McDonnell because their current stance (just before the referendum when it might actually matter) is In.

It's a measure of those politicians touting the In vote and the true value they put on the interests of the UK regarding their true opinions on the eu (apparently - as it's difficult to know what any of them actually believe apart from serving themselves). One just cannot rely on any of them.

Why would anyone believe any of their election promises.

You can understand some of the more revolutionary parts of Labour wanting out. Revolutions tend to follow disaster, I guess they see leaving the EU as bringing about the collapse of the UK. Maybe this is why Corbyn is keeping quiet?

[Sheeple Splinter]

A business view:

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKKCN0WU0HK

Disaster plan in place. Its ok though because the UK will be able to negotiate an EU deal that has taken Canada 8 years in a couple of weeks, the pound and the economy won't crash and anyway German car makers will make sure that everything will work out just fine.

1. Business view - If Article 50 provides for 2 years of the status quo i.e. we continue to pay EU membership fees and participate in free trading, movement etc., then why are these companies spending money on consultancies before they even know the ref. outcome?

2. I am surprised you consider CETA as a good example of EU membership! Eight years to sort out a trade deal? That's a lot of accommodation expenses!

CETA would have been delivered years earlier except for TTIP & Visa disputes raised by Czech Republic, Romania & Bulgaria.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2013/10/25/romania-canada-eu-trade-deal_n_4163328.html

(Can't quote for some reason) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Economic_and_Trade_Agreement

[Sheeple Splinter]

You can understand some of the more revolutionary parts of Labour wanting out. Revolutions tend to follow disaster, I guess they see leaving the EU as bringing about the collapse of the UK. Maybe this is why Corbyn is keeping quiet?

Actually, self-serving is all you need to understand; on all sides of the house!

Pro-EU parties continue to chant, "Better in than out to reform the EU." despite Cameron's 6 month reform campaign to achieve nearly nothing.

[billybong]

You can understand some of the more revolutionary parts of Labour wanting out. Revolutions tend to follow disaster, I guess they see leaving the EU as bringing about the collapse of the UK. Maybe this is why Corbyn is keeping quiet?

He's not keeping quiet he said he's now in favour of staying in the eu when until fairly recently he said he was on the side of leaving. Support for wanting out is across parties

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/28/jeremy-corbyn-backs-british-membership-of-eu

He wants to "fight for a better Europe" yet they've had more than 40 years to do that already and look at the results - look at how successful Cameron's been with it with the utterly feeble negotiations outcome. They have no influence and Merkel calls the shots. Mega massive unscreened migration Merkel.

Seems like the LibLabCon alliance emerging yet again in its usual self serving manner with the usual self serving individuals/politicians.

Edited March 29, 2016 by billybong

[XswampyX]

He's not keeping quiet he said he's now in favour of staying in the eu when until fairly recently he said he was on the side of leaving. Support for wanting out is across parties

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/28/jeremy-corbyn-backs-british-membership-of-eu

He wants to "fight for a better Europe" yet they've had more than 40 years to do that already and look at the results - look at how successful Cameron's been with it with the utterly feeble negotiations outcome. They have no influence and Merkel calls the shots. Mega massive unscreened migration Merkel.

Seems like the LibLabCon alliance emerging yet again in its usual self serving manner with the usual self serving individuals/politicians.

Look what you could have won if only you had stayed in = a small turd floating in a bucket of pi$$. Thanks but i'll pass!

[fluteroop]

The separatists have a long & ignoble history - take a look at the long term trackers, like at https://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpublications/researcharchive/2435/European-Union-membership-trends.aspx. Current levels of 'rip us out' are about normal, earlier this year they hit nearly an all-time low. The traitors will always be there, but they're always much much louder than their numbers reflect.

I'd like to see your rationale behind your standpoint. Not saying you're wrong.

Just saying that almost irremovable corporate forces are the devil I know. Totally irremovable corporate forces are the devil I don't.

Been saying for months this is a bit like choosing between AIDS and cancer. One of these illnesses is recoverable from.

Convince me to Bremain plz. Ta.

Edited March 29, 2016 by fluteroop

[fluteroop]

A business view:

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUKKCN0WU0HK

Disaster plan in place. Its ok though because the UK will be able to negotiate an EU deal that has taken Canada 8 years in a couple of weeks, the pound and the economy won't crash and anyway German car makers will make sure that everything will work out just fine.

Oh, Lord Business wants us In.

Ever seen the Lego movie pal? No offence but f*** business. I'm all about people.

[GreenDevil]

No offence but f*** business. I'm all about people.

Well said. And while at it f... The banksters too.

[billybong]

HEREFORD, England (Reuters) - Above a factory floor of machines carving metal to within a millionth of a metre, Stephen Cheetham is preparing his company for the unknown: a British exit from the European Union.

One suspects that he thinks that the vote will be to remain in and once that decision is made then he would prefer to move out of the UK to somewhere cheaper and more amenable to manufacturing elsewhere in the eu and on the eu mainland. There would be no more possibility of a risk of trade restrictions to sell his product in the UK if the vote is to stay in so he might as well move to somewhere on the mainland.

He's telling scary stories but it's likely he's still leaving the UK if the vote is to stay in.

Wary of meddling in politics, however, they have largely not detailed their plans for the June 23 vote.

Leaving the bloc, Cheetham worries that his firm could miss out on this kind of advantage and become less competitive.

You mean to say he can't already find a cheaper place outside of the UK within the eu to make his company more competitive. It's a fair bet he's moving if the decision is to stay in and the eu issue is finalised.

Companies with shareholders will use it as a reason to insist on them moving out of the UK to more competitive places on the eu mainland.

Edited March 31, 2016 by billybong