The Official Brexit - Remain Thread - All New Threads Will Be Merged Into This One

[GrizzlyDave]

Grizzly Dave.....

Honestly Dave I have been sitting on my sofa for 3 years now. Riding my motorbike and generally having a good time.

In the event of Remain ? I`ll just carry on with a fairly big smile on my face.

If it`s leave ....then I`ll have to work or do a business as I`ve done before.

Believe me I want to leave more than anything !

I'm not going to sugar coat it. BREXIT will need some hard work and effort to be successful. But we will be sovereign and lean. The EU is a bloated benefit bath, cold showers are far better for you.

[thecrashingisles]

The EU is a bloated benefit bath, cold showers are far better for you.

Do you think so? Our benefits system is one of the most generous there is.

[warpig]

Yours doesn't even make sense and yes you are a sell out.

"Those who would give up essential Democracy, to purchase a European trade deal, deserve neither Democracy nor the Pound."

I'm not a sellout.

Those who would give up their essential liberty to settle anywhere in the EU to buy temporary security from hordes of refugees, deserve neither liberty nor security.

[thecrashingisles]

Yours doesn't even make sense and yes you are a sell out.

"Those who would give up essential Democracy, to purchase a European trade deal, deserve neither Democracy nor the Pound."

Europe is about more than trade. It's a federation. The only successful framework for political stability in Europe that has ever been implemented. If we walk away it will shame us as a nation.

[council dweller]

Grizzly .....

Yes I lived for 15 years in Japan it was bloody hard but mainly I live from savings made in those days.

Anyway, just 3 more sleeps.

[council dweller]

` A sick man shackled to a corpse`

The sick man may recover.

Says it all ?

[spunko2010]

Pretty sure thecrashingisles is trying to wind you up. Nobody makes the peace in Europe argument now.

[Sheeple Splinter]

Europe is about more than trade. It's a federation. The only successful framework for political stability in Europe that has ever been implemented. If we walk away it will shame us as a nation.

Successful in what way, peace?

[warpig]

Correlation is not causation. Sod walking, let's run.

Europe is about more than trade. It's a federation. The only successful framework for political stability in Europe that has ever been implemented. If we walk away it will shame us as a nation.

[warpig]

I love a good debate, he won't wear me out.

Pretty sure thecrashingisles is trying to wind you up. Nobody makes the peace in Europe argument now.

[XswampyX]

Successful in what way, peace?

The 'Germanification' of europe ?

[thecrashingisles]

The Holy Roman Empire got on fine without us.

I would argue, every time Europe managed to coalesce created massive problems for our neighbours. The Crusades at the behest of the Pope and the attacks on Russia under Napoleon and Hitler.

The bigger the entities, the bigger the conflagrations. I'll happily put up with 'skirmishes' and forest fires to avoid huge disasters.

Talk to Minsky about the false illusion of calm.

The difference is that then it was a European world and now it's a global world.

[billybong]

Great post. I also mentioned earlier that the EU heads & bureaucrats will see a Remain vote as a mandate given by the British public to the EU. They will use and abuse that vote to the fullest. They will crow about it for the months head. Cameron will have lost any negotiating power he had. It won't matter if it's 49.9999999% leave, EU will not acknowledge the numbers - it's the end result that counts.

And I also agree that the reality will fester and worsen. We have already seen the growing numbers of people utterly fed up and exasperated by uncontrolled immigration (one of the worst aspects of the EU). Seriously, if the referendum was a year or two later, the Leave campaign would have walked it. But we won't get a second chance. Just unrest and a dictatorial government telling us we voted IN already.

The eu elections in 2019 could be fun with even more UKIP meps and Farage doing a Khrushchev with his shoe. Edited June 20, 2016 by billybong

[thecrashingisles]

I don't understand. So you're saying we should be in a global federation? Or are you saying we need to be in a European federation to fight other federations?

To some extent the latter although I don't think we need to fight anyone.

The main point is that the power relations are different, and the nature of the EU is different. Even in its fully realised form of the mythical 'super-state', the President of Europe would not be the most powerful wo/man in the world, and probably not even the most powerful wo/man in Europe. I don't think you need to fear that the EU is necessarily heading for some great historic catastrophe.

[999house]

Given an army and the political machinery....

1. The French will see Europe as a competitor to the USA.

2. 10 minutes later we'll be biting the heels of the Russian bear in Ukraine and other places.

If the EU is supposedly a CIA-inspired construct, they can't have thought very many moves ahead in this game of chess.

and in a time of crisis the whole thing falls apart because nobody can agree with what to do. In the end, countries form coalitions with other countries that agree with them. Just like in the good old days.

Edited June 21, 2016 by 999house

[Limpet]

Back in the late 70`s, when I started work, it was not uncommon for a proportion of my peers to "tip up".

For the younger of you, this meant hand over your wages at the end of the week to your parents who then gave some of it back as pocket money and kept the rest as your contribution to the household running costs.

Basically a situation that said, okay you`re old enough to go to work and earn some money but not adult or mature enough to handle your own decisions and take responsibility for your own life.

Stuck in a sort of limbo, too old to be a child and too young and immature to make your own way in the world. All major decisions made for you by people who knew best.

Exactly how the EU is trying to treat us.

As an adult who is more than capable of running his own life I find this outrageous and insulting.

I`m not just voting Leave, it`s more like go and f@ck yourself

[trekking]

I`m not just voting Leave, it`s more like go and f@ck yourself

LOL LOL

My thoughts exactly!

[Longtermrenter]

Seems to be a lot of you guys throwing the towel in or close to it.

Story from today....

Taken on a big job for this landscape gardener and had to get a load of SWA cable in the ground for a load of outside expensive lighting going in.

Now this landscape gardener is a total eccentric lefty hippy, but he is a rich good business man lefty hippy.

Today we were just chatting over a cuppa and he tried to get me to spill the beans I totally know what I am voting for and why.

But the conversation sort of went "Mmmm, not sure really, some good reasons on both sides, blah blah" I was ashamed of myself, but get some good money out of this guy. I did not want him thinking I am in anyway anti Europe or racist or any of the other accusations thrown our way.

If I did that, who is to say that a lot of these people grabbed in the streets to do a Poll do the same.

I still think there is a chance, slightly outside is my feeling, but even I might be shocked

Have had similar situations reversed. That is, I'm a remainer but when pressed have stood on the fence to reduce scope for argument and upset in certain situations.

[GrizzlyDave]

Do you think so? Our benefits system is one of the most generous there is.

Tell me about it. Our benefits system is a big ******ing problem.

People gotta eat, but I would bring in food vouchers (fresh food and healthy food only), a voucher for smart work clothes, a voucher for a haircut. I would bring in national service, filling pot holes would be first priority, as well as picking up litter.

[Frugal Git]

My biggest issue is with the benefits system. That needs to change - for everyone, not immigration policy.

I read some idiotic remain comment who was glorifying the fact that a Latvian girl he knew, a qualified doctor, had come here to clean because she earned more as if that was a socially progressive move.

That is tragic - a complete waste of her potential.

She should have every right to love where she wants, but each individuals primary concern should also be to fulfil their Base ambitions, not really aim to just exist.

Nothing will change either way - both the UK and the EU are completely stuffed economies now.

[macfarlan]

The elite dont lead revolts. Thats why Brexit is a fake one.

Decent point, but the article is mainly aimed at 'working class labour voters' who think brexit will work for them. So probably no-one on this forum.

[Frugal Git]

The elite dont lead revolts. Thats why Brexit is a fake one.

Decent point, but the article is mainly aimed at 'working class labour voters' who think brexit will work for them. So probably no-one on this forum.

Hmm. From the artice.

'So even if the migrants stop coming, and maybe a few fruit farms and meat-packing operations in East Anglia shut down, there will still be millions of low-paid jobs on long hours. But guess who will be doing them? Most likely it will be you, the very people flag-waving for the leave camp now: low-skilled people in small towns.'

Again this is an awful, awful point, reinforcing what I said in the post above.

The people who are doing this work aren't necessarily unskilled. Often they are extremely smart people who have been duped into thinking subsidised wage arbitrage gives them a better standard of living.

This will only frustrate them in the long run imho. Nothing is more soul destroying then not working to your potential.

[macfarlan]

Hmm. From the artice.

'So even if the migrants stop coming, and maybe a few fruit farms and meat-packing operations in East Anglia shut down, there will still be millions of low-paid jobs on long hours. But guess who will be doing them? Most likely it will be you, the very people flag-waving for the leave camp now: low-skilled people in small towns.'

Again this is an awful, awful point, reinforcing what I said in the post above.

The people who are doing this work aren't necessarily unskilled. Often they are extremely smart people who have been duped into thinking subsidised wage arbitrage gives them a better standard of living.

This will only frustrate them in the long run imho. Nothing is more soul destroying then not working to your potential.

Yes, I also thought it was a mistake to take that angle. But the wider point that the elite are driving the whole thing is a useful one.

[macfarlan]

There's a great rant on facebook at the moment in response to a brexit flyer coming through the letterbox. I thought people here might find it interesting;

I said I’d stay out of it. I said I’d keep my opinions to myself, but I was tipped over the edge by arriving home today to find a pamphlet in my other half’s name, and on the same doormat, a lies-ridden rag in my own name.

I started scribbling a response on it, which the intention of mailing it back to them, but after a few minutes listening to the sound of my own indignant breath snorting through my nostrils, I realised the only way I could expunge this fury was by battering my keyboard into submission.

Respectfully, Vote Leave, I would like to unsubscribe from future communications, and here’s why:

It is a pack of lies. Seriously, this is GCSE-level stuff. We as a country are about to take the biggest decision of several generations, one that could not feasibly be undone in my lifetime, and we’re being asked to do so on the basis of lies, half-truths, distortions and, in case that wasn’t enough to hoodwink you, a bit of old-fashioned racism to boot.

Lie #1: Over a quarter of a million people migrate to the UK every year
And over 300,000 people leave the UK every year
( http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/Emigration-nation-who-are-the-… )
(but because they’re British, they’re called “Expatriots”). You can argue the toss about whether free movement of people within the EU is a good or a bad thing, but you cannot argue that it doesn’t work both ways. You can also argue the toss about whether immigration is a net good, but when a leading Leave campaigner comes out to say that immigration was only a positive until 2002 (when those nasty east Europeans were allowed in), I start to smell racism, and hear a dog-whistle.
http://www.theguardian.com/…/immigration-could-overwhelm-br…

Lie #2: The EU is expanding to include Albania, Macedonia, Montenegro, Serbia and Turkey.
Not strictly true this one. All of the above have expressed their interest in becoming members - in Turkey’s case, as far back as the 1980s - but none are close to having full membership just yet. Yes, Turkey does have a very large population, that’s right, and yes, new members would have the same rights… including a veto on new members. Does the UK have a veto on new members?

Yes, it does. Unless it leaves, when it doesn’t. See also Lie #6.

Lie #3: The EU has changed enormously since 1973
Thank you Sherlock; so have most places. I almost gave you a pass on this one, until I noticed the rather disingenuous claim about needing to prop up the Euro… erm, we’re exempt from Eurozone bailouts. Next.

Lie #4: EU law over-rides UK law
You almost had me on this one, but you need to look at the small print… immigration, counter-terrorism, prisoner voting… thaey are not ECJ decisions, but ECHR decisions. And that is a totally different story. Excuse me while I go off on a tangent…

What they actually want to exempt us from is the European Convention of Human Rights, membership of which is a precondition of EU membership. They would instead replace the Convention with a British version - telling called “rights and responsibilities” - which would defeat the entire principle of universal human rights that we the UK helped to forge. Namely, that regardless what the government of a particular country thinks at any given time you are entitled to be treated with dignity.

Why did we create this principle? Because about 65 years ago, one of our neighbour states changed its laws to allow itself to gas 6 million people within its territory. In doing so, they did nothing illegal but breached every standard of human decency. So after that, we decided it would be a good idea to write down that “standard of human decency” just in case anyone was in any doubt.

So if you belive Lie #4 on the basis of the examples they offer there, then you are falling for one of the bigger porkies of human history.

Lie #5: The EU costs us £350m a week
This isn’t so much a lie as a cluster-lie. It’s several lies packed into one big one. Let me break it down a little:

Lie #5.1 £350m a week.
Which doesn’t count a) the rebate, b ) the funds we receive in EU grants for projects we’d otherwise have to fund out of government spending.

Lie #5.2 Enough to build a new hospital…
Spare me. Frankly, if you fall for this one you deserve all you get. Boris Johnson, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling and Nigel Farage the defenders of the NHS and British public services? Despite their track records in government and / or stated public positions to the contrary?

Lie #5.3 We have no control over how it’s spent
Rubbish, because…

Lie #5.4 That’s decided by politicians and officials in Brussels…
Who we elect! Commisioners are appointed by member states governments, and the European Commission’s proposed laws are subject to ratification by the European Parliament, which is so democratic it actually gives anti-EU parties such as UKIP disproportionately more seats than their share of vote entitles them to. For example, in 2014 UKIP got 25% of the vote in the UK, and received 35% of the UK’s seats. In the British elections to the Holy Seat of Democracy the following year, they received 1m more votes and took home a paltry one seat.

Lie #5.5 … not by the people we elect
This is not technically a lie. They should be decided by the people we elect, but the ******* never turn up.
( http://www.independent.co.uk/…/ukip-meps-attend-the-fewest-… )

Lie #5.6 [On the reverse they equate this figure to £19bn a year]
£19bn a year is about 2.4% of the UK government’s annual £770bn spending. So turn that into household budgeting… imagine you earn a typical salary of £35k, meaning you take home about £2,100 a month. The equivalent would be a subscription that cost you £51.66 a month. So, on a par with your gym membership or Sky Sports subscription.

Lie #5.7 We get less than half of that back
49.2 % actually. That’s worse than Spain, which just about breaks even, and certainly much worse than Poland which contributes -22%. But compared to Germany, which only gets back 39%, we’re doing pretty well. More here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budget_of_the_European_Union

Lie #6 You don’t have to be a member of the EU to trade with it
First bit’s true. Switzerland’s a really bad example though. Why choose Switzerland when it undermines your argument so badly? Switzerland and Norway are part of the wider European Free Trade area, which allows them free access to the common market in return for accepting a few conditions like freedom of movement for EU citizens… which kind of undermines your racist fearmongering from Lie #1.

And as for all UK firms having to obey EU rules, are these the rules you want to emancipate us from?
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CSgaiTdWoAAhYvD.jpg

Lie #7 While we’re in the EU we can’t negotiate our own trade deals
Two points in response to this: 1) the USA has already said that negotiating a trade deal with the UK wouldn’t be a priority, and 2) most small businesses don’t do import / export. There you’re just re-hashing lie #6.

Lie #8 There are risks in voting either way
Experts, politicians and business are divided. I’ll give you politicians, and maybe give you busin… nah, who am kidding? This is Captain Redbeard Rum’s “opinion is divided on the subject" which he clarified as "all the other Captains say it is, I say it isn’t.”

Lie #9 [special Bonus Racist Dog Whistle]
What the hell are Syria and Iraq doing on this diagram? Are they applying for EU membership too?

So no, all in all, my mind’s made up, and I think you can save yourself some postage by taking me off the list.

Edited June 21, 2016 by macfarlan

[Steppenpig]

Lie Truth #1:

LieTruth #2:

LieTruth #3:

LieTruth #4:

Lie #5.

LieTruth #6

LieTruth #7

LieTruth #8

LieTruth #9