Frank Hovis Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 I'd be open to starting a new more democratic EU for a smaller number of more like minded states. I think a union of the UK, Ireland and the Dutch would work. As could a Latin EU of France, Spain, Italy and Portugal. I do think the EU is too big, but my objections to the current set up are as much about how it is being done as they are about whether it should be done at all. We could just rejoin EFTA, it seems the obvious alternative and does precisely what we supposedly joined the EU for: removing trade barriers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 You see lots of ignorance from the remain camp...just seen one guy espousing the benefits of free movement. He fails to see that we already are NOT in the free movement zone. yet he thinks leaving the EU will somehow prevent what he already doesnt have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cosmic Apple Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 You see lots of ignorance from the remain camp...just seen one guy espousing the benefits of free movement. He fails to see that we already are NOT in the free movement zone. yet he thinks leaving the EU will somehow prevent what he already doesnt have. Probably the same mindset as those that think the instant we vote out all laws previously applied by the EU are null and void, i.e. human rights, workers rights etc and it will be like the dark ages instantaneously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 The EU is already setting itself up as a super state...with an unelected leadership. It has: A Central Bank, lawmakers, borders, local government. It is about to get: A security force. It is not far from being a state. It will be the first state in history where its constituent parts are able to leave unilaterally. That's quite profound when you think about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riedquat Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 You see lots of ignorance from the remain camp...just seen one guy espousing the benefits of free movement. He fails to see that we already are NOT in the free movement zone. yet he thinks leaving the EU will somehow prevent what he already doesnt have. Just had my boss's boss saying similar, and how he was astounded at all the Remain posters he'd seen driving up here and thinks that they're all crazy Even in the unlikely event that we'd need a full visa to travel anywhere in Europe, so what? I've probably got myself in trouble for strongly disagreeing with him. The EU is already setting itself up as a super state...with an unelected leadership. It has: A Central Bank, lawmakers, borders, local government. It is about to get: A security force. It is not far from being a state. Precisely. I really don't understand how people aren't worried about that, but apparently a few fairly meaningless economic concerns are far more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 It will be the first state in history where its constituent parts are able to leave unilaterally. That's quite profound when you think about it. It is interesting. I'd throw in the example of the UK and Scotland - we are currently in a union which might have allowed a member state to have left. Of course it wasn't actually tested*, but... ...so far the EU is also untested on this. If we vote to leave will we be allowed to? Whether through legal chasms to cross or through nuances such as allowing the electorate to have another chance at making the right choice... And what are the odds on the first state to leave resulting in a modified constitution which calls for majority approval to allow a member state to leave? Obviously we don't know this - but that is the point - the EU can make all sorts of decisions which would impact on the sovereignty of the UK. *The UK does at least have form at disbanding the Empire and, more recently, allowing countries to leave the Commonwealth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 It is interesting. I'd throw in the example of the UK and Scotland - we are currently in a union which might have allowed a member state to have left. Of course it wasn't actually tested*, but... ...so far the EU is also untested on this. If we vote to leave will we be allowed to? Whether through legal chasms to cross or through nuances such as allowing the electorate to have another chance at making the right choice... And what are the odds on the first state to leave resulting in a modified constitution which calls for majority approval to allow a member state to leave? Obviously we don't know this - but that is the point - the EU can make all sorts of decisions which would impact on the sovereignty of the UK. *The UK does at least have form at disbanding the Empire and, more recently, allowing countries to leave the Commonwealth. The Scottish referendum illustrates the point perfectly. The SNP government has no legal authority to call a referendum or declare independence, whereas no-one in Brussels has any say over what the UK does in respect of our referendum. We could even leave just on a parliamentary vote if we wanted to. We are sovereign and that can't be changed by anything the EU might do in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
long time lurking Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 ******ing hell that's a big move. It does really feel like leave has massive momentum and remain is in a bit of a daze. That's significant for sure as everything i have seen says that the remain side has far more money bet on that side A bookie generally lengthen their odds on one side to attract more money to that side why would they be trying to increase their liabilities on the heavy side ? And then shorten the odds (admittedly only slightly) on the light side which is going to reduce their liabilities on that side IF it`s still the same as in remain has the lion's share of the money on that side of the bet its pretty clear to me that the bookies are now betting on a leave vote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBlueCat Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 No because a ) Canada has never been hostile to the US except to the extent that it was a British possession, and b ) Canada is not threat in terms of being able to defy America on anything that matters. You can't compare it with Europe where we have centuries of conflict between evenly matched rival powers, going right up to the present day as we still don't have a settled relationship with Russia. The US and Canada were regularly at war until 1812 when we burned the Whitehouse down and the Tanks backed off. I think it's an entirely fair comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 The US and Canada were regularly at war until 1812 when we burned the Whitehouse down and the Tanks backed off. I think it's an entirely fair comparison. But it wasn't 'Canada'. It was Britain. If Canada today were a colony of Russia, or France, or Britain, you would see much more friction with the USA than there is at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 The Scottish referendum illustrates the point perfectly. The SNP government has no legal authority to call a referendum or declare independence, whereas no-one in Brussels has any say over what the UK does in respect of our referendum. We could even leave just on a parliamentary vote if we wanted to. We are sovereign and that can't be changed by anything the EU might do in the future. It wasn't the case pre 2009. Might not be the case in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 It wasn't the case pre 2009. Might not be the case in the future. What do you mean? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 What do you mean? Pre article 50 (of the Lisbon Treaty) joining the EU was an open-ended commitment - legally it would have been difficult to leave. Article 50 sets out how a country might leave the union. The EU could decide to rewrite article 50. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkie Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Pre article 50 (of the Lisbon Treaty) joining the EU was an open-ended commitment - legally it would have been difficult to leave. Article 50 sets out how a country might leave the union. The EU could decide to rewrite article 50. That's not true. EU membership always depended on an act of parliament. All the Lisbon Treaty did was codify a mechanism for a negotiated exit as opposed to simply repealing the act and having a hard break (which we could still do). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBlueCat Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 But it wasn't 'Canada'. It was Britain. If Canada today were a colony of Russia, or France, or Britain, you would see much more friction with the USA than there is at present. Actually, it was a coalition of Canadian, British and first nations (under Tecumseh) forces. Canadians are surprisingly wary of American power. Ask anyone why Ottawa is the capital and they'll explain that Toronto is too close to the border, and they're not having a laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest TheBlueCat Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Anyway, on a more positive note, I have a hypothesis to share. I note that the leave and remain campaigns have almost identical numbers of Facebook likes but leave has a lot more followers. As the remainers have been handing out SJW type abuse (not around these parts thank heavens) I wonder if those followers are people who would be likes if they didn't think they'd be on the receiving end for doing so? It feels a bit like what happened at the election in fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattW Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 In Out In Out Shake it all about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southmartin Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 This is the biggest mistake they have made yet ...if they can`t see that god help us all ..i think both sides want out either that or the remain camp is run by morons The remain camp is run by people who want to stay in the EU, so yes - "morons" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 That's not true. EU membership always depended on an act of parliament. All the Lisbon Treaty did was codify a mechanism for a negotiated exit as opposed to simply repealing the act and having a hard break (which we could still do). The EU's papers on the matter suggest it to be not quite as simple as you suggest. eg, https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scplps/ecblwp10.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 The EU's papers on the matter suggest it to be not quite as simple as you suggest. eg, https://www.ecb.europa.eu/pub/pdf/scplps/ecblwp10.pdf Well that paper's quite biased. You only have to read the breathless preamble with all the qualifications that leaving is really a preposterous thing to be talking about. It is true that being in the Euro makes it a much more difficult exercise to pull off. In our situation there would still be some practical difficulties in doing it unilaterally but legally it's clear that we are still a sovereign country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Well that paper's quite biased. You only have to read the breathless preamble with all the qualifications that leaving is really a preposterous thing to be talking about. It is true that being in the Euro makes it a much more difficult exercise to pull off. In our situation there would still be some practical difficulties in doing it unilaterally but legally it's clear that we are still a sovereign country. Fair enough. We don't have to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dgul Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Hmmm. The best example in our lifetimes is the peaceful dissolution of the Soviet Union. Above every great so called peacemaker I place Gorbachev....then the South African bloke (spookily similar in appearance). Blessed are the true peacemakers. To be fair to TCI the USSR states left with the permission of the superpower - trying for unilateral exit didn't go well for Czechoslovakia in '68 (eg). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecrashingisles Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Hmmm. The best example in our lifetimes is the peaceful dissolution of the Soviet Union. The Soviet Union is a good example for another reason. It was an 'evil empire', brutally repressive single-party state and yet when the game was up, it split up without any major conflict (some local difficulties excepted). Whatever you think of the EU's democratic failings it is clearly not comparable to the USSR, so if it really does end up going badly, it's inconceivable that we wouldn't be able to dismantle it peacefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steppenpig Posted June 7, 2016 Share Posted June 7, 2016 Whatever you think of the EU's democratic failings it is clearly not comparable to the USSR, so if it really does end up going badly, it's inconceivable that we wouldn't be able to dismantle it peacefully. You shold hear some of the things they have been saying on German telly about the Poles and Hungarians. It sounds pretty threatening to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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