In Or Out?

[Steppenpig]

I have always found the obsession with getting young people to vote weird - apart from party political self interest, at least.

99% of young people have no interest or understanding of politics. Those that do are usually the stupidest idiots (see NUS etc). It takes until people get to their mid twenties or so, before they start to really understand anything about politics (and life).

I don't want to take the vote away from them or anything, because their youthful naivety and optimism is a counterbalance the cynicicsm and inflexibility of the elderly, but it does mystify me that people seem to attribute some sort of special status to the youth, when the fact that you have to make an extra effort to get them out of bed and vote should actually be proof that they are the sort of people who are not really fir to be voting in the first place.

[DEATH]

I think some young people see the EU as a precursor to the Star Trek's Federation and have dreams of working abroad in the sunshine, partying, etc for a few years. Overlooking the 50% youth unemployment in some of these countries.

It's pretty much turkey's voting for christmas. Lower wages and higher house prices for them, due to mass immigration and a touch of rape and violence as the various cultures clash with one another.

What's not to love?

[Frank Hovis]

I think some young people see the EU as a precursor to the Star Trek's Federation and have dreams of working abroad in the sunshine, partying, etc for a few years. Overlooking the 50% youth unemployment in some of these countries.

It's pretty much turkey's voting for christmas. Lower wages and higher house prices for them, due to mass immigration and a touch of rape and violence as the various cultures clash with one another.

What's not to love?

I am resisting the cynicism of saying if young people want to destroy their own future then let them; I have voted leave and sensibly set out the case for leaving when it gets discussed.

[Riedquat]

I think some young people see the EU as a precursor to the Star Trek's Federation and have dreams of working abroad in the sunshine, partying, etc for a few years. Overlooking the 50% youth unemployment in some of these countries.

I think you're absolutely right, the naivety about the EU is astounding. In any case as I said in one of these threads not being in the EU doesn't even stop you working in it, when I was in France I was sharing an office with someone for Australia. Just means a few more forms to fill in, no big deal (just as long as you're capable of doing something useful of course).

[thecrashingisles]

Were any Brexiters on here also against Scottish independence?

[Frank Hovis]

Were any Brexiters on here also against Scottish independence?

I was, though that was mostly because of CyberNat.

Him aside I wasn't particularly bothered though as I didn't see it having much if any impact upon me or anybody I knew. I was pleased with the result but no more than that.

I wouldn't have been burning Andy Stewart records on my front lawn or become anti-Scottish if the vote had gone the other way.

[Errol]

******ing hell. These people are voting.

Yes. That's the problem. They shouldn't be voting. They are thick.

Voting rights should probably be given on the basis of I.Q (or some other equivalent test).

[SarahBell]

Were any Brexiters on here also against Scottish independence?

No.

I do think they got as mugged as we are being now.

[ccc]

Were any Brexiters on here also against Scottish independence?

Yep. I voted no because I thought Scotland would be worse off if Independent. Nothing hugely against it happening in general if I had a time machine and went back to the 70's. That wasn't available though. And in hindsight - Scotland today if the vote had been yes would be in a desperate state due to a reduction in income of £13 Billion pounds a year in O + G income.

I am voting out for the EU one - as I think we will be better off outside the EU.

[Riedquat]

I was against Scottish independence, didn't see any good reason for it, and most pro-independence people seemed to be supporting it for the wrong reasons (I'd far more respect for those who didn't give a damn about the economic arguments, they just preferred the look and feel of the world with an independent Scotland). IMO the issues aren't quite the same.

[DTMark]

It's the same debate and argument:

The larger the democracy (in terms of people numbers), the further removed those are in power from the voters, and the greater the dilution of the democracy and the fewer checks and balances in the hierarchy.

You could of course then go on to argue that we should have different lawmakers and currencies for every county, then ever town, then every parish. However you're then into the realms of what is practical for a borderless society and what is not. They key word is 'borderless'.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

That neatly encapsulates my concerns.

I suspect that younger people tend to be more pro-remain because it's a long time since World War II, during which we saw what one megalomaniac can do when given power.

One Central Bank = one organisation in ultimate control. One person with overall responsibility for that = one person running all the countries that share the currency.

Not necessarily directly; it isn't running Greece. Not *technically*, of course. However the end result is the same.

We might not be able to be forced to join the single currency (though I've always said that there will come a day when we will do exactly that) but we could be put in a position where remaining out of it, while remaining in the EU, becomes impossible.

It won't happen *directly*, of course. But at some stage it will "be to our advantage". Which put the other way around, can be expressed as "remaining outside of it is now untenable".

Coming back to younger voters: I can't quote a statistic, it's just a suspicion - I suspect that more younger people are left-wing. I recall Owen Jones writing a piece bemoaning the fact that as people get older they tend to become more right-wing and asking why this is so.

It might have been Hitchens who politely attempted to explain that "it's because they grow up".

I didn't live through World War II. But I do read history and have a basic comprehension of psychology.

I've gone the other way but maybe that's because I'm a borderline millennial.

As a teen, I believed that some sort of meritocracy existed. Just study hard work hard and you'll have a good life. Everything is in your own hands. The conservatives were that sort of 'help yourself' political option.

Now as I think about knocking on the door of 40 I realise that I'm still living through traditional times like 99.9999% of human history where that's a crock of shit. Older people are 'help yourself and you ****** off' ***** and yes someone needs to be left wing/socialist about things.

If growing up means stamping on the head of your fellow man then call me Peter Pan.

[Guest TheBlueCat]

Were any Brexiters on here also against Scottish independence?

Not that I recall in fact. I am very pro Scottish independence and in favour of Brexit. I strongly believe that smaller administrative units work better than larger ones.

[Bossybabe]

I'd be open to starting a new more democratic EU for a smaller number of more like minded states. I think a union of the UK, Ireland and the Dutch would work. As could a Latin EU of France, Spain, Italy and Portugal.

I do think the EU is too big, but my objections to the current set up are as much about how it is being done as they are about whether it should be done at all.

In your brave new world, where would you put the Germans, SFX?

[SpectrumFX]

In your brave new world, where would you put the Germans, SFX?

They're probably fit better with us than the Latin lot, or the Greeks, but are big enough to go their own way I'd have thought.

[thecrashingisles]

They're probably fit better with us than the Latin lot, or the Greeks, but are big enough to go their own way I'd have thought.

And too big to let the others go their own way.

[Bossybabe]

And too big to let the others go their own way.

Unfortunately.

[sPinwheel]

For the sixth time on HPC..... i voted out

You can only vote once!

[The XYY Man]

Were any Brexiters on here also against Scottish independence?

Not me. Sadly the Jocks were though.

Rebellious Scots my ärse...

XYY