RIOTS THREAD MERGED

[Mrs Bear]

This has to apply from top to bottom of society e.g. heads of local government paid ludicrous salaries...but when things go wrong no responsibility and a golden parachute out. Yes toughen up but set the example at the top.

Quite right - they should have started with Fred the Shred.

And continued with all the fat cat PS employees who've wasted billions that could have gone to improve dire housing estates and hopeless schools, just for starters.

Not to mention the likes of Baroness Uddin. (sp?)

[Blue Peter]

Simply criminality is just the agreed line for today. Stressing that it is in no way related to the slightest aspect of politics, policing or social conditions.

I confidently predict that soon, next month, in 6 months, or whenever, the politicians of all hues will be claiming that their 'new plan' is the one and only solution to fix the issues with politics, police or social conditions that they claim today do not exist.

They are wrong (incomplete) now and they will be wrong then.

It's magical thinking - keep repeating the incantation "it's criminal behavious" in the hope that it becomes just criminal behaviour. Because to look more closely would reveal the dark side of their policies,

Peter.

[interestrateripoff]

Now, now. That was a "mistake". It's only theft if it's a bin through a shop window. Apparently.

And don't forget she gave the money back. Clearly the looters should just give the gear back its all good then, just a misunderstanding you see. Or is that option only open to MP's?

[JustAnotherProle]

Now, now. That was a "mistake". It's only theft if it's a bin through a shop window. Apparently.

She was just grandstanding on Sky, such a waste of oxygen, she thinks that a thief of tax payers cash is better than the thief who loots a shop, I don't see a difference Hazel.

I can see the recent events being abused by these Rt Hon members in an attempt to rewrite thier histories and cover up a few things they would prefer we all forgot, keep an eye out for them, I fully expect the New Labour historical revisionists to be out in full force with their hypnotic powers in an attempt at mass public memory loss.

[Mrs Bear]

Now, now. That was a "mistake". It's only theft if it's a bin through a shop window. Apparently.

We need a new dictionary definition of 'mistake'. e.g. When out of the mouths of politicians, often means 'something I did quite deliberately in the blithe expectation of never being found out.'

[JustAnotherProle]

We need a new dictionary definition of 'mistake'. e.g. When out of the mouths of politicians, often means 'something I did quite deliberately in the blithe expectation of never being found out.'

A Blearer?

[GordonBrownSpentMyFuture]

excellent article in The Mirror - at last someone on the Left gets it.

+1. An excellent article.

London riots: Tony Parsons on the warped logic of no-hopers good for nothing - and afraid of nothing

The "Benefits Britain" legacy is coming home to roost.

[Bloo Loo]

A Blearer?

I thinkthe current word "Politician" is sufficient.

[winkie]

And don't forget she gave the money back. Clearly the looters should just give the gear back its all good then, just a misunderstanding you see. Or is that option only open to MP's?

Quite, hypocrites that have to get their own houses in order before they can start dictating to others.

[newbonic]

She was just grandstanding on Sky, such a waste of oxygen, she thinks that a thief of tax payers cash is better than the thief who loots a shop, I don't see a difference Hazel.

...

One practical difference is that a looter will get a prison sentence and Blears gets a bye and a seat in the Lords....

[interestrateripoff]

It's magical thinking - keep repeating the incantation "it's criminal behavious" in the hope that it becomes just criminal behaviour. Because to look more closely would reveal the dark side of their policies,

Peter.

It's working seen numerous interviews and those affected are using the buzzwords of our beloved leaders.

Although looking at the numbers involved it would appear it's a very small subset of the population causing maximum damage.

The police tactics have been poor, it seems political just stand around and watch to make the point about the cuts. The police could easily face a backlash about how they are handling the matter. They need to get one step ahead and start isolating groups and forcefully encourage them to leave.

I've also been wondering why they don't start using paint guns, cover the rioters in paint.

[THE BALD MAN]

One practical difference is that a looter will get a prison sentence and Blears gets a bye and a seat in the Lords....

Shes not alone...applies to most of our ruling elite..

[interestrateripoff]

+1. An excellent article.

London riots: Tony Parsons on the warped logic of no-hopers good for nothing - and afraid of nothing

The "Benefits Britain" legacy is coming home to roost.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html

Similar theme in the Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2023898/London-riots-Red-sky-night-Tottenhams-alight.html

The roots of the burning and looting in North London at the weekend can be traced back not to Broadwater Farm 1985 but to the Great Ikea Riot of 2005.

Six years ago a 7,000-strong mob went berserk at the opening of a new furniture warehouse in Edmonton. Five people were taken to hospital, including a woman who was stabbed in a fight over a cut-price sofa.

[Jadoube]

It's the Soft Society.

All rights, no responsibilities.

High time for it to toughen up.

I agree with the objective.

Would stress people taking responsibiity (something done by oneself) to toughen up ( forcing others) Coercion is clearly necessary in the short term, but not sufficient in the long term.

IMO for many decades we've had a culture of asserting others should be responsible while not being willing to do so ourselves. After all its not only these rioting kids who act as if the law does not apply to them.

The law applies to me - even if (especially if) I do not agree with the law or like the result. If I break the law it is nobody's fault but my own and the penalty I recieve is justified. If I'm unhappy about it I campaign lawfully for the law to be changed.

Being a responsible citizen does not just mean not rioting, not stealing etc. It also means abiding by parking regulations and speed limits, paying my council tax, not making provocatively insulting comments about my neighbour (of whatever skin colour) or my fellow worker (in whatever job), not drinking excessively and disturbing my neighbours, not trying to stir up arguments, not allowing my dogs to frighten my neighbours, not allowing my children to harass my neighbours, not interfering in the way my neighbours wish to live their own lives, ........

Too few in our society set an example of responsible behaviour. (Read HPC any day of the week. )

[ccc]

+1. An excellent article.

London riots: Tony Parsons on the warped logic of no-hopers good for nothing - and afraid of nothing

The "Benefits Britain" legacy is coming home to roost.

Indeed. Altough IMO this has just increased the number of people in this country who do not give a toss about anything and expect to be given everything for nothing. Added to the normality of young blokes who sometimes feel like smashing things up and get stuff for free.

I don't think much of this is in any way new or different. I just think there are more people who are thinking '****** it, I may as well join in too' than there were before.

Added to this the media today, and instant communication means that every one of these people can instantly see the free stuff everyone else is getting. So they can, within seconds, join in. We have never had this instant national personal communication of thoughts, opinions and crucially pictures and videos before - in history.

[council dweller]

+1. An excellent article.

London riots: Tony Parsons on the warped logic of no-hopers good for nothing - and afraid of nothing

The "Benefits Britain" legacy is coming home to roost.

'No home that they have BUILT WITH THEIR OWN HANDS'

...now there's a thought.

[Bloo Loo]

I agree with the objective.

Would stress people taking responsibiity (something done by oneself) to toughen up ( forcing others) Coercion is clearly necessary in the short term, but not sufficient in the long term.

IMO for many decades we've had a culture of asserting others should be responsible while not being willing to do so ourselves. After all its not only these rioting kids who act as if the law does not apply to them.

The law applies to me - even if (especially if) I do not agree with the law or like the result. If I break the law it is nobody's fault but my own and the penalty I recieve is justified. If I'm unhappy about it I campaign lawfully for the law to be changed.

Being a responsible citizen does not just mean not rioting, not stealing etc. It also means abiding by parking regulations and speed limits, paying my council tax, not making provocatively insulting comments about my neighbour (of whatever skin colour) or my fellow worker (in whatever job), not drinking excessively and disturbing my neighbours, not trying to stir up arguments, not allowing my dogs to frighten my neighbours, not allowing my children to harass my neighbours, not interfering in the way my neighbours wish to live their own lives, ........

Too few in our society set an example of responsible behaviour. (Read HPC any day of the week. )

may I mention the huge debate on smacking children here....

And to be a repsonsible citizen, you need a responsible Authority to which to abide...today, we see thousands of those supposed to be at our service with their noses deep in the trough, with half the population excluded from even a sniff at these jobs as they wont get their "degree".

And if the Authorities wont do anything about your neighbours dogs, their kids and throwing dog shite in your garden, how law abiding are you encouraged to be?

A law to work needs co-operation...it needs an "or else" clause that people SEE is being applied to those that the law was designed for..Sadly, like many journalists today, Authorities dont bother detecting offenders, they catch the ones driving by in plane sight either by error or because a rule is in force just to catch the unwary out ( Most speed cameras for example).

Authorities, if they want respect, need to earn it.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8692178/London-riots-spread-to-Midlands-and-north-west-on-fourth-night-of-trouble.html

The Army’s emergency infantry battalion, known as the Spearhead Lead Element, has been put on standby should the civil unrest worsen, The Daily Telegraph has learned.

.......

“The Met does not want to use baton rounds, but if we get put into the position where it is best for the safety of property and lives in London then we will do so.”

He said that the youth of the rioters was a consideration: “We had people as young as 11 arrested. Do we generally want to see police in London using that type of tactic on 11 year-olds?”

The Met may not have a choice, there are enough warnings out there that the police will turn fascist.

However to provoke that response requires the action of others.

The reasons behind all of this are complex but law and order has to be restored, ultimately these people are demonstrating for freedom but for getting new trainers, some jewellery, a phone etc... I doubt the majority will raise serious issues with an 11 year old getting struck by a baton round if they are involved in the mayhem.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

may I mention the huge debate on smacking children here....

.

Yes you can...the rules on not smacking children and reasoning with them instead certainly looks to be working !!!

Perhaps we need laws to smack anyone who is politically correct, that would be of more benefit to society.

The liberal white wishy wash middle class minority have ruined this country for the majority.

Edited August 10, 2011 by TheCountOfNowhere

[Pole]

Yes you can...the rules on not smacking children and reasoning with them instead certainly looks to be working !!!

Perhaps we need laws to smack anyone who is politically correct, that would be of more benefit to society.

The liberal white wishy wash middle class minority have ruined this country for the majority.

+1

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2011/aug/09/london-riots-fighting-neighbourhoods

Deputy assistant commissioner Stephen Kavanagh had already said it was not baton rounds or water cannon that would defeat the rioters – it was communities themselves. "We are already seeing a community kickback. People are angry. This is their neighbourhoods that are at stake," he said.

Before Monday evening's events there were warnings that Turkish shopkeepers in Tottenham were forming "protection units" to stop their businesses being looted, while retailers in nearby Wood Green were said to have equipped themselves with crowbars and other weapons after holding emergency meetings.

When the trouble came, hairdressers, sales assistants and butchers were among the scores of Turkish and Kurdish workers who stood outside their businesses in Green Lanes, Haringey, from 8pm having been warned by police to expect trouble.

The Guardian filmed others – some armed with baseball bats – on guard outside shops and restaurants in Kingsland Road, only a mile away from Hackney's burning high street. Three workers from Re-Style Hairdressers were among those out in Green Lanes, after word spread that an attack was imminent at about 4pm.

It's going to get nasty, I'm surprised the big shops haven't got involved and asked for volunteers to help protect the shop.

Tesco's Every Little Helps could take on a whole new meaning.

At least for the North it's going to rain all evening so maybe a bit of rest bite unless of course people are more than happy to have a go in the rain.

[Bloo Loo]

http://www.guardian....-neighbourhoods

It's going to get nasty, I'm surprised the big shops haven't got involved and asked for volunteers to help protect the shop.

Tesco's Every Little Helps could take on a whole new meaning.

At least for the North it's going to rain all evening so maybe a bit of rest bite unless of course people are more than happy to have a go in the rain.

I see, so communities themselves need to ACT.

Yet when they do, when they attempt to stop the ferral families from shiting on the community, they get shafted and harrassed by the authorities...and when that summons slips onto the doormat, for someone who gives a damn, that is a real slap in the face, months of waiting to have your day in court, worried out of your skull.

Meanwhile, the ferrals take this sort of Authority harassment in their stride...its the price of living, indeed, its a BADGE for them to wear proudly. They dont give a flying frack about the law.

So no Mr Commisioner.....its not communities that need to act...Its YOU, its your fellow law enforcers, its teachers, its everyone who claims to have Authority..to EARN respect and GIVE respect.

[Mrs Bear]

I agree with the objective.

Would stress people taking responsibiity (something done by oneself) to toughen up ( forcing others) Coercion is clearly necessary in the short term, but not sufficient in the long term.

IMO for many decades we've had a culture of asserting others should be responsible while not being willing to do so ourselves. After all its not only these rioting kids who act as if the law does not apply to them.

The law applies to me - even if (especially if) I do not agree with the law or like the result. If I break the law it is nobody's fault but my own and the penalty I recieve is justified. If I'm unhappy about it I campaign lawfully for the law to be changed.

Being a responsible citizen does not just mean not rioting, not stealing etc. It also means abiding by parking regulations and speed limits, paying my council tax, not making provocatively insulting comments about my neighbour (of whatever skin colour) or my fellow worker (in whatever job), not drinking excessively and disturbing my neighbours, not trying to stir up arguments, not allowing my dogs to frighten my neighbours, not allowing my children to harass my neighbours, not interfering in the way my neighbours wish to live their own lives, ........

Too few in our society set an example of responsible behaviour. (Read HPC any day of the week. )

Plenty do, IMO, but they're what politicians patronisingly like to call 'ordinary' people.

Accountability should start at the top. Has anyone been held accountable for the waste of billions of public money?

At the other end, look at the binge drinking that blights so many town and city centres. Politicians bleat and wring their hands and blame the drinks industry. They could easily tackle it by really hefty fines for any alcohol-fuelled fighting/peeing/throwing up in the street/causing trouble in A&E departments.

We have an offence of Drunk and Disorderly but it has no teeth.

But they haven't given it teeth and they won't, because they're so cringingly terrified of alientating voters.

Maybe all this will finally make them realize that 'ordinary' people have had enough.

Not holding my breath, though.

Edited August 10, 2011 by Mrs Bear

[Redback911]

Comment posted on the Guardian site this morning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/blog/2011/aug/10/manchester-riots-uk-disorder-day-four-live

"As a retired GM Police Officer you must have been involved in the action against the mine workers in the 1980s. The Police were used as weapon against people fighting to save their jobs, their homes, their communities, and their way of life, against state sponsored pillaging and destruction.

At the time you were doing your job in accordance with your contract and oath, and I take no issue with that. The London Riots give us a very faint glimpse of what life might be like without a strong and dependable Police Force.

But can you not see the parallels with the present day, and the scars left by thirty years of mass unemployment, and the depletion of training, skills, and opportunity? Ways of life were replaced with menial temporary jobs, and social housing with short term private tenancies. The Civil Service promoted job security, stable homes, and gilt edged retirement pensions, as articles of faith during periods of intense social upheaval... and rubber stamped the measures that deprived millions of similar benefits.

Now the article of faith has become "I have to work hard, so why should I pay for Them to sit idle?" And those without the benefit of stable prosperous employment are expected to accept the leftovers with gratitude and respect for those more fortunate.

We've seen a lot in the papers about Anger and Injustice, now that civil service pensions have come under review... but at the same time the less fortunate are threatened with complete withdrawl of Any security if they're not prepared to jump through hoops chasing non-existant or blatantly exploitative 'jobs'. These people aren't going to join the protests over cuts in civil service jobs and pensions.

Greed and Envy have fuelled the present Govenment Policy against Cheats and Scroungers on the sick or the dole. The Greed of Taxpayers who wnt their (frequently Government Funded) Jobs with lower taxes... the greed of Property Owners who are the real cause of excessive Housing benefits... and Envy of those who manage a basic lifestyle without having to go out to work. But the Government now promoting greed and envy is a continuation of the Government that institutionalised unemployement, with the use of force, in the 1980s.

So now we have an underclass of young people with no allegience to society, no training opportunities, no prospects of meaningful employment, and no way of establishing a stable and permenant home. The costly private tennancies which benefit wealthy landowners have been bought with the erosion tennants rights and standard agreements of three to six months. Faced with the prospect of a massive squeeze on their already precarious lifestyles, it's no wonder they're angry, contemptuous, and destructive. Their example is set by those who ruthlessly exploit the economy for their own benefit, without a thought for the lives of those who have to face the consequences.

And they're not served or protected by the Police, whose job it is to suppress and contain them. Those who ask who's to blame should look in a mirror; because we all are. If we don't change society to promote opportunities for all, rather than profit for a few, then the pressures and frustrations that caused the present outburst will continue to build, and erupt in escalating violence."

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

3 meals away from anarchy is starting to look a bit optimistic.