stormymonday_2011 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Sovereignty is all very well and good, but in practice a nation-state is rarely completely independent. You say Greece has "the right and power" - it has the right... but does it have the power? Power is what differentiates between the different sovereign states of the world. Frankly Greece is almost powerless. The Greeks may not be able to be fully sovereign but they probably have the ability to be ungovernable, a feat they have managed many times in history. BTW In economic terms Germany is in a stronger position now than in the 1930s but in world terms it is not as important as it was in 1914 when it was the second biggest industrial power in the world behind the US. There is no doubt the Euro has been good for the German economy but absolutely lousy for the rest of Europe. Nonetheless Germany has its own structural problems including a demographic crisis that looks to be every bit as challenging as any faced by the UK http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=5667781&page=1#.T0GADXn_kTA In fact Germany has every reason to want to suck in wealth and people from the periphery of Europe to prop up its own economy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Sovereignty is all very well and good, but in practice a nation-state is rarely completely independent. You say Greece has "the right and power" - it has the right... but does it have the power? Power is what differentiates between the different sovereign states of the world. Frankly Greece is almost powerless. Greece still has the legal right and the power over decisions in connection with it's own territory and economy etc. It's just a matter of whether it decides to excercise that right and power (and take whatever consequences) or continue to be dictated to and to be told when to hold elections etc. I know it's not in a good position but it's not powerless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stormymonday_2011 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 (edited) Interesting to note that Schauble's suggestion that the Greek democratic process be suspended would itself be unconstitutional if applied in Germany http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/16f04ffa-5963-11e1-9153-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ms9xpqN0 Also worth reading the Treaty provisions underlying the EU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union Article 9 establishes the equality of national citizens and citizenship of the European Union. Article 10 declares that the EU is founded in representative democracy and that decisions must be taken as closely as possible to citizens. It makes reference to European political parties and how citizens are represented: directly in the Parliament and by their governments in the Council and European Council - accountable to national parliaments. Article 11 establishes government transparency, declares that broad consultations must be made and introduces provision for a petition where at least 1 million citizens may petition the Commission to legislate on a matter. Article 12 gives national parliaments limited involvement in the legislative process Suspending Greek elections would appear to violate the very core of these Treaties thus rendering them void. Edited February 19, 2012 by stormymonday_2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MRMX9 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 One of the PASOK puppets was on Friday's news night report saying an election now would be bad for Greece. They're all on message. Well the election would be bad for Pasok - they are facing a Fianna Fail style wipeout on 12 %. You can bet your life Pasok and its MPs dont want an election. Whats sad though is that the people seem to want to return No Democracy to power - despite the fact they presided over the mess and caused it (including being in league with Goldman Sachs). Why any Greek with any self respect would vote for either of these bunch of crooks is beyond me! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
copydude Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Interesting to note that Schauble's suggestion that the Greek democratic process be suspended would itself be unconstitutional if applied in Germany http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/16f04ffa-5963-11e1-9153-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ms9xpqN0 Absolutely. One rule for them. . . utter hypocrisy. In the same way as all EU jobs are undermined by imports from third world countries, where exploited 12 year old girls don't have to work to EU norms or health and safety regs. The EU agenda is to reduce everyone to slavery . . . never mind the buzzword austerity. But sure they can suspend democratic processes for a while . . and most likely will. But for how long? The numbers of unemployed youth on the streets in the EU is going astronomic. The politicos gravy train can't last much longer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Interesting to note that Schauble's suggestion that the Greek democratic process be suspended would itself be unconstitutional if applied in Germany http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/16f04ffa-5963-11e1-9153-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1ms9xpqN0 Also worth reading the Treaty provisions underlying the EU http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaties_of_the_European_Union Suspending Greek elections would appear to violate the very core of these Treaties thus rendering them void. Mind the Treaty is stuffed full of clauses like 23/1: "Decisions under this title shall be taken by the Council acting unanimously. Abstentions by members present in person or represented shall not prevent the adoption of such decisions." and 24/2 "The Council shall act unanimously when the agreement covers an issue for which unanimity is required for the adoption of internal decisions." and 24/5 "No agreement shall be binding on a Member state whose representative in the Council states that it has to comply with the requirements of its own Constitutional procedure; the other members of the Council may agree that the agreement shall apply provisionally." Just some examples of the overbearingness and as I couldn't copy from the link I typed out just some of the shorter clauses. Plenty of other examples in "Treaty on European Union". Amazing what the UK's political people have signed the UK up for. Incidentally the 4th paragraph of the Treaty preamble says: "CONFIRMING their attachment to the principles of liberty, democracy and respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and of the rule of law" Edited February 20, 2012 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonriver Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 So is the bail-out going to be approved today or not? http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9091734/Debt-crisis-and-Greek-bail-out-live.htmlFrench finance minister Francois Baroin says "all the elements are in place" to approve Greece's €130bn (£108bn) bail-out later today. ... ..Latest 09.15 There's talk that any second bailout for Greece should be paid into an 'escrow' account which would be separately managed to ensure the country services its debt. Staggered payments would mean that the country would have to stick to bailout conditions and austerity reforms to receive further funds. Austrian Finance Minister Maria Fekter said: Opinion "That is being prepared on the technical level. The finance ministers will discuss this intensely at their meeting. I welcome such a special account." . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ticket2ride Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 looks like this escrow account ruse might allow them to kick the can down the road a little longer. unbelievable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Indeed but once bankrupt it's a new loan, a new agreement and not a haircut of an original loan. bankruptcy law does not apply to sovereigns...they either pay or they dont. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) You might want to listen to this from 7 minutes in. Interesting Yank professor having a go at Germany over what they have done to Greece and the whole of Europe including the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01c6k70/Up_All_Night_20_02_2012/ Said William Hague is talking utter cr*p. Edited February 20, 2012 by The Masked Tulip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Loo Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You might want to listen to this from 7 minutes in. Interesting Yank professor having a go at Germany over what they have done to Greece and the whole of Europe including the UK. http://www.bbc.co.uk...ght_20_02_2012/ no one has done anything to Greece...apart from the Greek Government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rantnrave Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Whats sad though is that the people seem to want to return No Democracy to power - despite the fact they presided over the mess and caused it (including being in league with Goldman Sachs). Why any Greek with any self respect would vote for either of these bunch of crooks is beyond me! How are Labour currently doing in the polls over here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Masked Tulip Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hague is now telling Brits in Greece to register with the embassy just in case they need to be evacuated - who would have thought that we would be talking about evacuating people from Greece? This Euro club is great isn't it - lets you go broke and then chucks you out. Not very reassuring is it? Who is next? Whar are we going to do - one minute the Greeks are our fellow Europeans, the next we let them starve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democorruptcy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Hague is now telling Brits in Greece to register with the embassy just in case they need to be evacuated - who would have thought that we would be talking about evacuating people from Greece? This Euro club is great isn't it - lets you go broke and then chucks you out. Not very reassuring is it? Who is next? Whar are we going to do - one minute the Greeks are our fellow Europeans, the next we let them starve? Could Amanda help with a list of names and addresses? http://www.channel4.com/programmes/a-place-in-the-sun/episode-guide Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9091734/Debt-crisis-and-Greek-bail-out-live.html Hans-Werner Sinn, the head of Ifo, a top German economic think tank, says a €130bn (£108bn) bail-out today will only help international banks, not the Greeks.Opinion The politicians know [the second bailout can't save Greece]. They want to gain time until the next election. I think we're wasting time by doing this. Greece's external debt is rising with every year that passes until it leaves the currency union. We're getting ever further away from solving the problem. "The basic problem is that Greece isn't competitive. The cheap loans that the euro brought the country artificially raised prices and wages -- and the country has to come back down from this high level," he told Germany's Spiegel Online. We already knew that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9091734/Debt-crisis-and-Greek-bail-out-live.html 09.55 Greek finance minister Evangelos Venizelos says technical issues on the country's bailout package are still being discussed but he expects "uncertainty" to end today. "We expect today the long period of uncertainty - which was in the interest of neither the Greek economy nor the euro zone as a whole - to end. "The Greek people send to Europe the message that they have made, and will make, the necessary sacrifices for our country to regain its position of equality within the European family." Do the Greek people really want to be the slaves of the family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/9092602/Keyness-wisdom-is-perfect-for-the-eurozone.html Unfortunately, the Maastricht Treaty that conceived the euro suffered from what Keynes, speaking of Versailles, called “insincerity”. The Maastricht process set out for all the candidate nations the “convergence criteria” – the size of national debts, budget deficits and so on – necessary for entry. Because it was so keen to get everyone in, it interpreted these politically or, as its architects put it, “prospectively”. Which is a grand way of saying that it fudged them. Very few countries had truly met the criteria. Greece had not even remotely done so. As Keynes said of Versailles: “The resulting unveracity was fundamental.” Risk was forgotten. Countries with chaotic public finances could and did borrow at low rates because of the implicit German guarantee of the system. Germany, disguised by its membership of the euro, got a competitive exchange rate at last, and boomed. An interesting article. It wasn't just a fudge there was deliberate fraud by some to gain entry to the club. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) bankruptcy law does not apply to sovereigns...they either pay or they dont. Indeed. That's more or less the point I was making originally. It was the German finance minister who was using the word "bankrupt" in connection with Greece. He was saying something along the lines that Greece should make themselves bankrupt and negotiate a loan cut. My point was they don't have to pay anything on the current loans if they default/go "bankrupt". http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9091021/Germany-drawing-up-plans-for-Greece-to-leave-the-euro.html The German finance ministry is actively pushing for Greece to declare itself bankrupt and to agree a "haircut" on the bulk of its debts held by banks, a move that would be classed as a default by financial markets. ................. ................. "The idea instead is that the Greek government should officially declare itself bankrupt and begin negotiating an even bigger cut with its creditors. For Schäuble, it is more a question of when, not if." I imagine he was just using the word bankrupt in the general sense of being insolvent and unable to pay it's debts. In that connection apparently there's an IMF sovereign bankruptcy procedure called the “Sovereign Debt Restructuring Mechanism” (SDRM) Edited February 20, 2012 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonriver Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Latest from today's meeting.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9091734/Debt-crisis-and-Greek-bail-out-live.html Latest14.58 The Netherlands is demanding that there be a permanent troika presence in Greece as a condition of a second bail-out. We'll bring you more on this as it comes in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billybong Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Some interesting charts, figures and opinions etc on Greek debt in the links below. I don't know how accurate it all is (and I don't necessarily agree with the opinions expressed) - it's the figures and the distributions that are interesting.. http://www.leimonis.com/2011/05/mainholdersofgreekdebt/ http://www.leimonis.com/2011/07/main-holders-of-greek-government-bonds-and-greek-debt/ Dated May/July 2011 so likely they've already been posted. If so there's no harm in reposting at this point in time - bailout day/ no bailout day and all Edited February 20, 2012 by billybong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichM Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Latest from today's meeting.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9091734/Debt-crisis-and-Greek-bail-out-live.html Clever Dutch. Someone has got to call time on this, and the threat of a permanent Troika must be enough to get the Greek population to pull out of this fiasco? Incredible how this is playing out. Would be headline news but for the fact people are bored senseless. Have the US really forced the Germans to the table?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
interestrateripoff Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Latest from today's meeting.... http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9091734/Debt-crisis-and-Greek-bail-out-live.html With tanks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Generation Game Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Hmm, site went a bit haywire. Edited February 20, 2012 by The Generation Game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
papag Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 There telling Greece to go and look for minerals under the sea to help the debt, bloody hell why didn't someone think of this before, crisis over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Democorruptcy Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 They cannot stop until RBS have bought all the Greek debt from the German and French banks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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