THE GREAT BIG FAT GREEK THREAD

[MRMX9]

I just saw Constantine A. Papadopoulos - the Greek Minister for International Economic Relations (must be a fun job) being interviewed by Andrew Neil on Sunday Politics.

He insisted that Greece would never ever default and leave the Euro and that even if the country had to suffer another 5-10 years of pain it would be worth it in the long run. Not sure what the 'A' in his name stands for - probably ends in e and has 8 letters!

I looked at his CV. A career diplomat who then moved into the banking sector (working for a the Luxembourg parent company of a Greek local bank with links to the US) for 11 years presiding over the period while this whole disaster unfolded. Who exactly is he working for - presumably not the Greek people?

"He entered the Diplomatic Academy of the Hellenic Republic in 1986. Throughout most of his career at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs he showed a special interest in EU affairs. In 1998, he moved to the private sector, and worked at Eurobank EFG as Advisor on European Affairs providing political, economic and financial analysis for 11 years, until February 2010, whereupon he took up his present post at the Ministry. Dr. Papadopoulos is a Fellow of the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, Harvard University."

Edited February 19, 2012 by MRMX9

[The Masked Tulip]

I just saw Constantine A. Papadopoulos - the Greek Minister for International Economic Relations (must be a fun job) being interviewed by Andrew Neil on Sunday Politics.

He insisted that Greece would never ever default and leave the Euro and that even if the country had to suffer another 5-10 years of pain it would be worth it in the long run. Not sure what the 'A' in his name stands for - probably ends in e and has 8 letters!

I looked at his CV. A career diplomat who then moved into the banking sector (working for a the Luxembourg parent company of a Greek local bank with links to the US) for 11 years presiding over the period while this whole disaster unfolded. Who exactly is he working for - presumably not the Greek people?

"He entered the Diplomatic Academy of the Hellenic Republic in 1986. Throughout most of his career at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs he showed a special interest in EU affairs. In 1998, he moved to the private sector, and worked at Eurobank EFG as Advisor on European Affairs providing political, economic and financial analysis for 11 years, until February 2010, whereupon he took up his present post at the Ministry. Dr. Papadopoulos is a Fellow of the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, Harvard University."

+1 Wot he just said.

[frederico]

I just saw Constantine A. Papadopoulos - the Greek Minister for International Economic Relations (must be a fun job) being interviewed by Andrew Neil on Sunday Politics.

He insisted that Greece would never ever default and leave the Euro and that even if the country had to suffer another 5-10 years of pain it would be worth it in the long run. Not sure what the 'A' in his name stands for - probably ends in e and has 8 letters!

I looked at his CV. A career diplomat who then moved into the banking sector (working for a the Luxembourg parent company of a Greek local bank with links to the US) for 11 years presiding over the period while this whole disaster unfolded. Who exactly is he working for - presumably not the Greek people?

"He entered the Diplomatic Academy of the Hellenic Republic in 1986. Throughout most of his career at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs he showed a special interest in EU affairs. In 1998, he moved to the private sector, and worked at Eurobank EFG as Advisor on European Affairs providing political, economic and financial analysis for 11 years, until February 2010, whereupon he took up his present post at the Ministry. Dr. Papadopoulos is a Fellow of the Weatherhead Center for International Affairs, Harvard University."

shocking tbh, how long before they have a real revolution.

[Chuffy Chuffnell]

Democracy suspended.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/greece-faces-call-to-put-off-elections/story-e6frg6so-1226275182475

EUROZONE finance ministers are considering a German demand for Greece to postpone its national election as a condition of another huge bailout.

Anyone who still doubts that Europe is entering a new era of dictatorship should re-evaluate now.

[Errol]

'Postpone' the election? lol.

The Greeks need to revolt now or see democracy and any self respect lost for ever.

[R K]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9091021/Germany-drawing-up-plans-for-Greece-to-leave-the-euro.html

The German finance ministry is actively pushing for Greece to declare itself bankrupt and to agree a "haircut" on the bulk of its debts held by banks, a move that would be classed as a default by financial markets.

Eurozone finance ministers meet on Monday to approve the next tranche of loans from the EU and the International Monetary Fund, designed to stave off national bankruptcy while the new Greek government puts the country's finances in order.

But the severe austerity measures being demanded have caused such fury in Greece, and the cuts required are so deep, that Wolfgang Schäuble, the German finance minister, does not believe that any government would be able to implement them.

[Bloo Loo]

http://www.telegraph...e-the-euro.html

its easy to implement the cuts to public sector...you just stop paying them.

[Roman Roady]

Merkel's election prospects might well be reduced by caving in and giving Greece more German tax-payer money.

Ditto.

Things are finally coming to a head me thinks.

All room for manoeuvre has been gradually used up over the past few years.

No wonder the Germans want to suspend democracy...gets in the way don't it.

[Democorruptcy]

The German finance ministry is actively pushing for Greece to declare itself bankrupt

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financialcrisis/9091021/Germany-drawing-up-plans-for-Greece-to-leave-the-euro.html

Maybe the Germans have been waiting to see how likely it is that Sarkozy will get re-elected? Without Sarkozy there is no Merkozy. How viable are summits with Merkel talking to herself?

Hollande seems a near-certainty to be the next president.

Hollande has pledged himself to an old-fashioned borrow-and-spend program. What’s on the agenda? An extra 60,000 teachers, at a cost of 20 billion euros. Another 150,000 state-aided jobs. Higher taxes on the rich, and a financial transactions tax on the banks (although surprisingly, banking is a relatively successful French industry). A reduction in the retirement age from 62 to 60

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/francoise-hollande-will-spark-next-euro-crisis-2012-02-08

Edited February 19, 2012 by Democorruptcy

[billybong]

Democracy suspended.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/greece-faces-call-to-put-off-elections/story-e6frg6so-1226275182475

Anyone who still doubts that Europe is entering a new era of dictatorship should re-evaluate now.

Greece is still a sovereign nation and it's ironic it being where real democracy is supposed to have first originated. That is if history is to be believed.

They're being treated and pushed around now like a 2 bit colony, a conquered nation. Ireland already just do as they're told now and I imagine it'll be the turn of Spain, Italy and Portugal next (not necessarily in that order) and the UK shouldn't think that it's going to get away free in that connection - actually the UK seems to be already well along that road.

[billybong]

"The idea instead is that the Greek government should officially declare itself bankrupt and begin negotiating an even bigger cut with its creditors. For Schäuble, it is more a question of when, not if."

Well it wouldn't be bankrupt under those circumstances. Not as it's normally understood.

If it declares itself "bankrupt" then there's no need to negotiate anything at all with its creditors. It could start completely afresh under no legal obligation at all to it's creditors.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Democracy suspended.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/greece-faces-call-to-put-off-elections/story-e6frg6so-1226275182475

Anyone who still doubts that Europe is entering a new era of dictatorship should re-evaluate now.

One of the PASOK puppets was on Friday's news night report saying an election now would be bad for Greece. They're all on message.

[Bloo Loo]

Greece is still a sovereign nation and it's ironic it being where real democracy is supposed to have first originated. That is if history is to be believed.

They're being treated and pushed around now like a 2 bit colony, a conquered nation. Ireland already just do as they're told now and I imagine it'll be the turn of Spain, Italy and Portugal next (not necessarily in that order) and the UK shouldn't think that it's going to get away free in that connection - actually the UK seems to be already well along that road.

of course, if a borrower wants another loan, and the lender knows the borrower is in a poor state, and lied to get its previous loans, then the lender has every right to see that the borrower is taking steps, provably, to be able to repay.

In any case, I wouldnt view another loan as a bail out. a sinking ship doesnt need One more hour of diesel to work the bilges at a cost of another 2 ins of water in the hold.....it needs the bilges to work till the ship is fully afloat.

[Chuffy Chuffnell]

Greece is still a sovereign nation and it's ironic it being where real democracy is supposed to have first originated. That is if history is to be believed.

They're being treated and pushed around now like a 2 bit colony, a conquered nation. Ireland already just do as they're told now and I imagine it'll be the turn of Spain, Italy and Portugal next (not necessarily in that order) and the UK shouldn't think that it's going to get away free in that connection - actually the UK seems to be already well along that road.

Greece is nominally a sovereign nation - in practice it isn't.

Not sure how the UK comes into the equation - we're not in the Eurozone. We have more than just nominal sovereignty, we have our own currency, we also have pretty decent armed forces... we're still regarded as one of the great powers... and importantly I suspect our people are less likely to roll over backwards and let the Germans steamroll over us in any case.

God, it really is like 1930s all over again...!!

Edited February 19, 2012 by Chuffy Chuffnell

[R K]

One of the PASOK puppets was on Friday's news night report saying an election now would be bad for Greece. They're all on message.

Assets the rich own in Greece are denominated in Euros so they'll be v reluctant to see them drachmatised.

But then those who have stashed their money in Switzerland, Germany etc ought to want to see Greece exit so they can buy up all the assets at 30c on the Euro (before the Germans beat them to it).

Few of the politicians seem to be acting for the demos, but no change there.

[Bloo Loo]

Assets the rich own in Greece are denominated in Euros so they'll be v reluctant to see them drachmatised.

But then those who have stashed their money in Switzerland, Germany etc ought to want to see Greece exit so they can buy up all the assets at 30c on the Euro (before the Germans beat them to it).

Few of the politicians seem to be acting for the demos, but no change there.

a real asset is a real asset....in whatever currency you price it.

Those stashing their EUROS in other Countries must be stashing Euros, not real assets. Im sure few Greek cafes have been moved to Germany, olive groves to Switzerland.

[Democorruptcy]

a real asset is a real asset....in whatever currency you price it.

Those stashing their EUROS in other Countries must be stashing Euros, not real assets. Im sure few Greek cafes have been moved to Germany, olive groves to Switzerland.

What about all those who bought London property a couple of years ago? If Greece defaulted and they got to the exit first for their sterling then drachmae, they have made a right killing.

[19 year mortgage 8itch]

Assets Greeksthe rich own in Greece are denominated in Euros so they'll be v reluctant to see them drachmatised.

This is something I am very aware of.

[copydude]

One of the PASOK puppets was on Friday's news night report saying an election now would be bad for Greece. They're all on message.

No, they are simply out for themselves.

Support for PASOK has fallen from 40 plus per cent to 8%. Of course elections don't suit them anytime soon.

This is also true for any perceived 'German collaborators' currently in power.

A recent poll in Greece suggested that the majority wouldn't vote for anyone.

EUrinating over the ordinary Greek population has created a power vacuum. This is the problem when you try to rig democracy.

This is all so silly, doncha think? Even if you naively believe that the Greeks are all olive pip spitting retsina soaks, they have a right to live the way the want. They are never going to be a nation that exports flash and vulgar cars, whatever Merkel thinks might be ideal.

Why doesn't the EU give it up already. There is so much potential conflict in this current situation.

[Bloo Loo]

What about all those who bought London property a couple of years ago? If Greece defaulted and they got to the exit first for their sterling then drachmae, they have made a right killing.

a London home is not a Greek Asset.

Its a UK asset owned by a Greek.

[Lion]

Greece is nominally a sovereign nation - in practice it isn't.

Not sure how the UK comes into the equation - we're not in the Eurozone. We have more than just nominal sovereignty, we have our own currency, we also have pretty decent armed forces... we're still regarded as one of the great powers... and importantly I suspect our people are less likely to roll over backwards and let the Germans steamroll over us in any case.

God, it really is like 1930s all over again...!!

Not quite, back then Germany was poor and humiliated, today they are the opposite. Germany is today the natural leader in the Eurozone, or can you see any other country coming even close to the economic and increasingly also political clout the Germans have within that zone? This crisis is way beyond the scope of smaller nations and their elected leaders. Merkel is alone in the driving seat as the other countries are either too small or too paralysed - even the French. We all can only hope Merkel and her advisers makes the right decisions, whatever they are. The Germans don't like the role they find themselves in as this role will not win them any friends but better them than any other of the Euro nations. The other countries know that Germany can only succeed if they all give up a part of their independence to a plan engineered by (mainly) Germany, and seem to be happy to do so. Nationstates are overrated anyway. The alternative is financial meltdown, revolution and a new financial system (not based on fractional reserve banking), but this would require a global effort and we are not quite there yet.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Lion

[billybong]

Greece is nominally a sovereign nation - in practice it isn't.

Not sure how the UK comes into the equation - we're not in the Eurozone. We have more than just nominal sovereignty, we have our own currency, we also have pretty decent armed forces... we're still regarded as one of the great powers... and importantly I suspect our people are less likely to roll over backwards and let the Germans steamroll over us in any case.

God, it really is like 1930s all over again...!!

Just to be clear my earlier post wasn't disagreeing with your post.

A nation can't be a bit sovereign. Either it is or it isn't. I'll grant you that the debt currently restricts their room to manoeuvre but as a sovereign nation they still currently have the right and power to decide to default/go bankrupt and so on or whatever. They also have the right and power to allow another nation to tell them when to hold their elections etc.

The comment on the UK was because although the UK isn't in the euro currency and the UK is a sovereign nation the UK is currently a member of the eu and has already handed over a lot of rights and power to the eu - albeit those in charge of the UK have willingly handed it over (UK politicians etc - without the consent of the UK people through referendum etc).

[Chuffy Chuffnell]

Not quite, back then Germany was poor and humiliated, today they are the opposite. Germany is today the natural leader in the Eurozone, or can you see any other country coming even close to the economic and increasingly also political clout the Germans have within that zone? This crisis is way beyond the scope of smaller nations and their elected leaders. Merkel is alone in the driving seat as the other countries are either too small or too paralysed - even the French. We all can only hope Merkel and her advisers makes the right decisions, whatever they are. The Germans don't like the role they find themselves in as this role will not win them any friends but better them than any other of the Euro nations. The other countries know that Germany can only succeed if they all give up a part of their independence to a plan engineered by (mainly) Germany, and seem to be happy to do so. Nationstates are overrated anyway. The alternative is financial meltdown, revolution and a new financial system (not based on fractional reserve banking), but this would require a global effort and we are not quite there yet.

The comparison between Germany of the 1930s and the Germany of today is that they are dominant on continental Europe one way or another. In the 1930s Germany quickly became militarily dominant under the Nazis... today Germany is economically dominant.

[Chuffy Chuffnell]

Just to be clear my earlier post wasn't disagreeing with your post.

A nation can't be a bit sovereign. Either it is or it isn't. I'll grant you that the debt currently restricts their room to manoeuvre but as a sovereign nation they still currently have the right and power to decide to default/go bankrupt and so on or whatever. They also have the right and power to allow another nation to tell them when to hold their elections etc.

The comment on the UK was because although the UK isn't in the euro currency and the UK is a sovereign nation the UK is currently a member of the eu and has already handed over a lot of rights and power to the eu - albeit those in charge of the UK have willingly handed it over (UK politicians etc - without the consent of the UK people through referendum etc).

Sovereignty is all very well and good, but in practice a nation-state is rarely completely independent. You say Greece has "the right and power" - it has the right... but does it have the power? Power is what differentiates between the different sovereign states of the world. Frankly Greece is almost powerless.

[billybong]

of course, if a borrower wants another loan, and the lender knows the borrower is in a poor state, and lied to get its previous loans, then the lender has every right to see that the borrower is taking steps, provably, to be able to repay.

In any case, I wouldnt view another loan as a bail out. a sinking ship doesnt need One more hour of diesel to work the bilges at a cost of another 2 ins of water in the hold.....it needs the bilges to work till the ship is fully afloat.

Indeed but once bankrupt it's a new loan, a new agreement and not a haircut of an original loan.