Are The Cuts Really Necessary?

['Bart']

I tend to see the cuts as being necessary, but a lot of people (e.g. on other forums) don't seem to agree.

What are the realistic alternatives? Are there any? Can we continue with the current levels of deficit spending? Are the cuts a waste of time? Are we screwed whatever we do?

[Inca]

The problem with the cuts is that everyone agrees with them until something that they want is cut.

The main issue with the cuts is that they are ideological - there are many alternatives - 50% tax on everyone over 100k, close offshore tax havens, tax financial transactions, get out of afganistan, stop the corporation tax giveaway etc etc etc

[aa3]

Worrisome for the UK we're not taking advantage of opportunity when it presents itself. Remember the 3rd runway at Heathrow? That was a £5 billion at least capital project that the market was pushing for. That would have got alot of people working in good jobs, and when the runway opened more commerce moving through London.

Instead our government idiotically stopped that, AND slammed the industry with a ton of new taxes and fees. This had emerged as one of London's best industries, like planes stopping over and people staying over and transfering to other flights.

Next up housing. A housing shortage and rising housing costs, can be looked at as a great opportunity.. To build new housing developments and condo developments. And all the related infrastructure that goes with them. Saying no to all that development, also says no to all the jobs and economic activity that would go with it.

[dubsie]

It's about striking a balance, but the level

of cuts we are seeing here are wreckless. If you look at the MOD cuts and the result is the navy not being able to support ground troops.

This government won't cut taxes enough for the average earner for all this to be worthwhile.

[Frank Hovis]

After all the Councils sacking front line staff and keeping the corporate non-jobs on their excessive salary, finally we have a bit of sensible cutting. Keep the frontline staff and slash the excess perks. It's a good start.

Police budgets are to be cut by up to 20 per cent over the next four years and forces have been warned they must find savings.

The annual overtime bill alone is running at more than £450 million across the country and will be a key target of any reform.

Individual officers earn on average up to £3,000 a year in overtime. It emerged in 2009 that some officers in London were taking home more than £100,000 a year after doubling their incomes with overtime.

Officers can currently earn four hours overtime for being called back in after going off duty.

Overtime is also available when officers are called in for a shift without 15 days notice or working public holidays.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/8355479/Police-pay-packets-must-be-cut-to-save-jobs-Home-Secretary-to-warn.html

In answer to 'Bart' I don't see an alternative, the public sector is wildly inefficient (I know - I work in it!) so instead of taking tax revenue from the private sector to fund it we should be cutting it and lowering corporation taxes to allow firms to make more profits and start expanding and taking on more workers.

[Jack's Creation]

Worrisome for the UK we're not taking advantage of opportunity when it presents itself. Remember the 3rd runway at Heathrow? That was a £5 billion at least capital project that the market was pushing for. That would have got alot of people working in good jobs, and when the runway opened more commerce moving through London.

Instead our government idiotically stopped that, AND slammed the industry with a ton of new taxes and fees. This had emerged as one of London's best industries, like planes stopping over and people staying over and transfering to other flights.

Next up housing. A housing shortage and rising housing costs, can be looked at as a great opportunity.. To build new housing developments and condo developments. And all the related infrastructure that goes with them. Saying no to all that development, also says no to all the jobs and economic activity that would go with it.

We don't have the money to fund these projects. We'd have to borrow it and pay it back with interest. The long term net effect would be negative and would remain so as long as our balance of payments with the rest of the world remained negative.

[sossij]

Some ideas:

1) Large scale roll-out of nuclear power stations. Keeps scientists, engineers and construction specialists busy. Reduces UK dependence on fossil fuels, increases energy independence and security of supply.

2) Retro fitting all UK housing tock to be energy efficient: double glazing, roof & wall insulation, solar panels where appropriate. Keeps electricians, builders, roofers plasterers busy plus small businesses and entrepreneurs. Reduces energy demand in the long term.

3) Remove tax advantages from Buy To Let landlords - 'nuff said.

4) Introduce a Land Value Tax - tax the unproductive land hoarders, reduce the burden on productive tax earners and genuine wealth creators.

5) Tax breaks for engineering/electronic/scientific companies.

6) Abolish University fees for 'hard' degree courses - maths, physics, engineering etc.

7) Anyone who wishes to hold a UK Passport pays tax on their UK-based earnings at UK tax rates.

8) Break up banks into retail and casino divisions. Allow casinos to go to the wall without bail outs.

Rather annoyed that the word tax appears rather a lot in the above but hey ho.... we're the taxpayers, its our stick to wield.

[Injin]

I tend to see the cuts as being necessary, but a lot of people (e.g. on other forums) don't seem to agree.

What are the realistic alternatives? Are there any? Can we continue with the current levels of deficit spending? Are the cuts a waste of time? Are we screwed whatever we do?

It'sd probably worth noting that there are no cuts, spending is rising - it's just that seeing the end in sight, the tory led coalition is transferring everything that isn't nailed down to it's financial backers using the cuts as an excuse for wealth transfer. The lib dems must think they've won the lottery, to be quite frank.

A lot of people might say that we could jail all the bankers and then carry on as before. The real issue with that is, of course that no one who is paying for the state actually wants to given half a choice - and the bankers are key in getting the funds in against the general will of those people.

And yes, "we" are screwed whatever "we" do. Debt that can't be paid off won't be paid off, and the only issue is whether it'll be outright defaulted on or the currency printed into oblivion. Politicians and banksters are pathetic cowards to a man and so printing into oblivion is inevitable. The other option that some will moot at this juncture is to say that services are ended, taxes go up a bit, inflation goes up a bit - a sort of financial 3rd way. This completely ignores how the man in the street thinks the system works and what his likely reaction will be to 70-90% tax rates, 10% per month inflation with nothing back - i.e. tools down, bricks chucked, troops in, black and grey markets come to the fore etc etc

[chronyx]

Some ideas:

1) Large scale roll-out of nuclear power stations. Keeps scientists, engineers and construction specialists busy. Reduces UK dependence on fossil fuels, increases energy independence and security of supply.

2) Retro fitting all UK housing tock to be energy efficient: double glazing, roof & wall insulation, solar panels where appropriate. Keeps electricians, builders, roofers plasterers busy plus small businesses and entrepreneurs. Reduces energy demand in the long term.

3) Remove tax advantages from Buy To Let landlords - 'nuff said.

4) Introduce a Land Value Tax - tax the unproductive land hoarders, reduce the burden on productive tax earners and genuine wealth creators.

5) Tax breaks for engineering/electronic/scientific companies.

6) Abolish University fees for 'hard' degree courses - maths, physics, engineering etc.

7) Anyone who wishes to hold a UK Passport pays tax on their UK-based earnings at UK tax rates.

8) Break up banks into retail and casino divisions. Allow casinos to go to the wall without bail outs.

Rather annoyed that the word tax appears rather a lot in the above but hey ho.... we're the taxpayers, its our stick to wield.

Great post

[Bloo Loo]

What we need is a new Minister in charge of the Department of Health and Efficiency, with supervisory powers over supervisors, Administration controls on Administrators, Managerial control of managers, and all working from gleaming new offices in the Gherkin.

I reckon 500,000 people would be needed, that would be 500 to do the work, 10,000 to oversee, 100,000 to report and collate and the rest in HR.

[Lepista]

It'sd probably worth noting that there are no cuts, spending is rising - it's just that seeing the end in sight, the tory led coalition is transferring everything that isn't nailed down to it's financial backers using the cuts as an excuse for wealth transfer. The lib dems must think they've won the lottery, to be quite frank.

A lot of people might say that we could jail all the bankers and then carry on as before. The real issue with that is, of course that no one who is paying for the state actually wants to given half a choice - and the bankers are key in getting the funds in against the general will of those people.

And yes, "we" are screwed whatever "we" do. Debt that can't be paid off won't be paid off, and the only issue is whether it'll be outright defaulted on or the currency printed into oblivion. Politicians and banksters are pathetic cowards to a man and so printing into oblivion is inevitable. The other option that some will moot at this juncture is to say that services are ended, taxes go up a bit, inflation goes up a bit - a sort of financial 3rd way. This completely ignores how the man in the street thinks the system works and what his likely reaction will be to 70-90% tax rates, 10% per month inflation with nothing back - i.e. tools down, bricks chucked, troops in, black and grey markets come to the fore etc etc

If you were in power, and knew this was coming, what would you be doing about it?

Me, I'd be trying to carry on pretending it wasn't there, in the knowledge that if anybody got the slightest whiff that that is how I thought and it spread, me and all my buddies would be strung up from lamposts the very next day.

Better to just say that the recovery is underway, but we need to cut a little bit.

[Injin]

If you were in power, and knew this was coming, what would you be doing about it?

Me, I'd be trying to carry on pretending it wasn't there, in the knowledge that if anybody got the slightest whiff that that is how I thought and it spread, me and all my buddies would be strung up from lamposts the very next day.

Better to just say that the recovery is underway, but we need to cut a little bit.

You missed "while piling up wealth for myself all over the place for after TSHTF." Everyone goes on about Gordon Brown selling gold at record lows like he doesn't have a suitcase full of the stuff.

[interestrateripoff]

If you were in power, and knew this was coming, what would you be doing about it?

Me, I'd be trying to carry on pretending it wasn't there, in the knowledge that if anybody got the slightest whiff that that is how I thought and it spread, me and all my buddies would be strung up from lamposts the very next day.

Better to just say that the recovery is underway, but we need to cut a little bit.

That's the way I see it.

[mikthe20]

Here's a Plan B for your friends OP:

- Land Value Tax

- Citizen's wage

- Public sector cut immediately to cost less than tax revenues into the Exchequer

- No other taxes or benefits

Yes, I know there's a big question about the levels of the above, but it would would balance the economy and incentivise individuals and businesses PDQ.

[Bloo Loo]

I was thinking along the lines of the Kings new Clothes too.

[Injin]

Here's a Plan B for your friends OP:

- Land Value Tax

- Citizen's wage

- Public sector cut immediately to cost less than tax revenues into the Exchequer

- No other taxes or benefits

Yes, I know there's a big question about the levels of the above, but it would would balance the economy and incentivise individuals and businesses PDQ.

There are so many vested interests that would have you killed if you got anywhere close to doing any of this it's a non starter.

[Bloo Loo]

There are so many vested interests that would have you killed if you got anywhere close to doing any of this it's a non starter.

Hitler was great at clearing out VIs...then became one.

[mikthe20]

There are so many vested interests that would have you killed if you got anywhere close to doing any of this it's a non starter.

I know

Doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do though.

[profitofdoom]

I know

Doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do though.

What gets me is the current crew's enthusiasm,it's clearly ideologically driven. The planning policies are going to have the effect of exacerbating the housing shortage because it's all one way pandering to NIMBY's and Countryside interests.Maybe there will be a revolution,which no doubt Dave will support- or do all his people love him?

[sossij]

Great post

Thank you chronyx. Sadly, as Injin points out, anyone likely to implement such a strategy would be shot on the spot. So that leaves...

9) Rage Virus.

[eric pebble]

Worrisome for the UK we're not taking advantage of opportunity when it presents itself. Remember the 3rd runway at Heathrow? That was a £5 billion at least capital project that the market was pushing for. That would have got alot of people working in good jobs, and when the runway opened more commerce moving through London.

3rd runway involved knocking down 3/4 villages! - And shoving people out of their lifetime homes! So - not that simple AT ALL.

[longtomsilver]

Anyone for a game of SimCity?

[SomethingHasToGive]

I tend to see the cuts as being necessary, but a lot of people (e.g. on other forums) don't seem to agree.

What are the realistic alternatives? Are there any? Can we continue with the current levels of deficit spending? Are the cuts a waste of time? Are we screwed whatever we do?

I believe the level of the deficit is such that if you doubled income tax you just about cover it. I don't think that is viable solution.

The cuts ( as someone already said ) aren't cuts, they are actually a cut in future increases in spending.

I think we are probably screwed whatever we do. I'm expecting at least a decade of crapness for this country. There are probably ways we could arrange that would deal with the problems quicker, but they will be more painful in the short term so politicians won't do them.

[MrFlibble]

I believe the level of the deficit is such that if you doubled income tax you just about cover it. I don't think that is viable solution.

The cuts ( as someone already said ) aren't cuts, they are actually a cut in future increases in spending.

I think we are probably screwed whatever we do. I'm expecting at least a decade of crapness for this country. There are probably ways we could arrange that would deal with the problems quicker, but they will be more painful in the short term so politicians won't do them.

To match the last one then.

[The Knimbies who say No]

Injin mentioned it further up but it's worth repeating: There are no cuts! (in nominal terms at least). Spending will continually rise throughout this Parliament.