If We Didn't Borrow Money To Buy Houses, They Would Cost A Fraction Of Todays' Prices.

[Tiger Woods?]

WHY DO WE LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS???

Banks use "clever" advertising and PR techniques to persuade the vast majority of the population to borrow money to buy property. Thus - this becomes the norm. Thus - the "price" is the sum of money which, effectively, is decided by the sum of money the Moneylender/Bank is prepared to lend. Especially over recent years, because of the massive fraud of the LIAR LOAN SYSTEM, by which the Moneylenders merely pass on the risk involved to some poor sucker elsewhere, the sum of money lent is risk free - and can therefore be much, much larger than in the past. THUS - the sum of money lent to Mr Anyperson to buy a 2/3 room slavebox is utterly, utterly insane -- and THAT becomes THE NORM.

....

Weird, isn't it!?.......

It is completely and utterly weird, and many people just can't think out of the box enough to get it.

Sartre was right when he said hell is other people...at least it is created for us by the venality and greed of other people. Usury is a bad, bad thing.

[Bloo Loo]

But again we hit the vicious circle. We're not ALL lazy, (well, a lot are) but we work obscenely long hours. When would we get the time to build our own house?

If we did have the time to build our own where would we get the money from for materials without a job?

ever thought that you work the onscene hours BECAUSE finance firms have set themsleves up to ensure that you do, and they dont?

[Patfig]

To be fair - A basic 3 bedder costs around 60k to build - even with the economies of scale and profits required for the big builders.

I don't think we can ever realistically expect the vast majority of houses to sell for 20-30k.

80-100 fair enough.

IMO 20 to 30K houses will be back. It may cost 60K to build a house NOW but older housing stock didnt cost 60K to build. There surely is enough proerty in the country now

[ccc]

Well, OK, a couple of years - at the very very most. But I remember seeing a house go up in a week when I was living on the outskirts of Prague. I don't remember saying three months, smart ass. Anyway, you forget about the division of labour. Form a cooperative with an architect, plumber, bricker, plasterer and that gives you five people, you could surely build five houses in five years. Of course, the problem now is land and planning permission and all that - which is all part of the process to discourage us. Also, if a man builds a house and has one son, the son gets the house for free, so he does NO WORK for it at all, so the average time to build it is effectively halved. I still say a house = a year's work.

You said 5k for the UK. That equates to about 3 months work for the average Joe.

A years work equates to about 25k for the average Joe.

That is one rather large difference.

Anwyay I think your idea is admirable. But not liekly in reality. So everyone is a co-operative with the 5 people you refer to above ? So what if your mates do other work ? Which will be the case for most people. You would have to pay the people who are not in the co-operative. Would add tens of thousands easy.

Trust me - I would love it houses in the UK were 30k across the board. I just do not see it happening. I do not think it is do-able either.

One year for a basic shelter ? Fair enough. In fact 3 months for a basic shelter. However for running water etc.. ?

No danger one years is reasonable. IMO.

Patfig - I am sure 30k houses are back already. Just not very pleasant ones.

[Kaine]

ignore building regs and you can build a house for 20-30k - the regs add a lot of cost, plus more importantly quality, durability and safety

[Patfig]

You said 5k for the UK. That equates to about 3 months work for the average Joe.

A years work equates to about 25k for the average Joe.

That is one rather large difference.

Anwyay I think your idea is admirable. But not liekly in reality. So everyone is a co-operative with the 5 people you refer to above ? So what if your mates do other work ? Which will be the case for most people. You would have to pay the people who are not in the co-operative. Would add tens of thousands easy.

Trust me - I would love it houses in the UK were 30k across the board. I just do not see it happening. I do not think it is do-able either.

One year for a basic shelter ? Fair enough. In fact 3 months for a basic shelter. However for running water etc.. ?

No danger one years is reasonable. IMO.

Patfig - I am sure 30k houses are back already. Just not very pleasant ones.

http://www.rightmove.co.uk/property-for-sa...cending%3Dfalse

[sikejsudjek]

If you controlled immigration you could give pretty much everyone a free basic house. Most of the housing stock was built and paid for many years ago. The builders took their profit, and the owners paid them. Ironically such a policy would enable adequate spending money to the majority who are now faced with spiralling debts and decreasing wages to pay for a pointless bank bailout. You DO NOT get out of recession by taxing into the ground the productive part of the economy in favour of the leeches in banks. Driving down wages and increasing debt in real terms is a sure way to produce a depression.

The financial system is nothing short of a parasite about to kill its host. Servicing the massive debts will drive millions to default and despair.

[jocohen]

WHY DO WE LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS???

Banks use "clever" advertising and PR techniques to persuade the vast majority of the population to borrow money to buy property. Thus - this becomes the norm. Thus - the "price" is the sum of money which, effectively, is decided by the sum of money the Moneylender/Bank is prepared to lend. Especially over recent years, because of the massive fraud of the LIAR LOAN SYSTEM, by which the Moneylenders merely pass on the risk involved to some poor sucker elsewhere, the sum of money lent is risk free - and can therefore be much, much larger than in the past. THUS - the sum of money lent to Mr Anyperson to buy a 2/3 room slavebox is utterly, utterly insane -- and THAT becomes THE NORM.

THUS - the "price" - even though in reality is ABNORMAL - AND INSANE --- passes itself off as THE NORM.

So - "NORMAL" house prices are not normal at all -- but the BANKS/MONEYLENDERS have managed to UTTERLY SKEW & MANIPULATE the "market price" throught the FRAUDULENT MEANS outlined above [and below], and, through "clever" advertising [just look at the amount of adverts/marketing of banks in the media - it is depressinly huge], the majority of people appear to have been persuaded, bizarrely & sadly, that this is the "NORM".

i.e. Because the MAJORITY of people have been persuaded to join the Ponzi/Pyramid Scam [the "housing market"] and "pay" stupid prices for property, the minority are forced to either "buy" into this "market", or not "buy" into it at all. The "norm" is the "market price". But this has been fraudulently manipulated/skewed upwards.

Clear thinking and intelligent people - the minority - are forced either to take it or leave it, stay in/out of the "market".

The "price"/cost has been completely manipulated nevertheless.

IF YOU HAD TO PAY FOR YOUR PROPERTY FROM YOUR POCKET - I.E. SAVINGS - AND THERE WAS NO INSITITUTIONALIZED AND TOTALLY FIXED SYSTEM OF "LENDING/BORROWING" MONEY BY THE BANKING VESTED INTERESTS - THE AVERAGE PROPERTY WOULD COST AROUND £20-30k.......

WE HAVE BEEN TOTALLY AND UTTERLY CONNED.

WE DO NOT QUESTION THE "NORM" OF BORROWING MONEY TO BUY A ROOF OVER OUT HEADS. WE DO NOT SEE THAT THE MONEYLENDERS/BANKERS EFFECTIVELY SET AND DECIDE THE "PRICE" BY THIS MEANS. WE END UP PAYING A RIDICULOUSLY LARGE "PRICE" FOR OUR HOUSES, SLAVING OUR ENTIRE WORKING LIVES TO PAY THE MONEYLENDERS FOR THEM. MANY PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT THE MONEYLENDERS DOUBLE THEIR MONEY FROM "LENDING" US THE "MONEY" TO "BUY" PROPERTY.

WHY CAN PEOPLE NOT WAKE UP TO THIS? PEOPLE WILLINGLY FALL INTO THE TRAP - AND ALSO - CLEVERLY - THE MONEYLENDERS HAVE TURNED HOUSE "BUYING" INTO A PYRAMID SELLING SCAM WHICH - ONCE YOU "BUY INTO" IT - YOU WANT TO KEEP THE WHOLE "PRICES ONLY GO UP" BULLSH1T GOING...... BECAUSE YOU ARE NOW PART OF IT. THE NEW "BUYERS"/BORROWERS THAT WANT TO FOLLOW BEHIND ARE FORCED TO SLAVE MORE AND MORE OF THEIR LIVES TO JOIN IN ON THE "HOUSING LADDER"/SCAM.....

Weird, isn't it!?.......

Which may explain why all biblical texts speak against usury and without it the value of profiteering from money

[Kazuya]

Which may explain why all biblical texts speak against usury and without it the value of profiteering from money

Ditto.

[threetimesdead]

Designing cheap accomodation isn't a problem. Desigining cheap accomodation that is nice to live in, and durable enough to withstand our awful climate for hundreds of years, is more challenging.

Spent the weekend with a frien who just moved into a new built semi - could hear all of the bodilly functions of their neighbours most of the time, most of their conversations and certainly the intercourse

You don't have to buy a portacabin to declare yourself an idiot - pretty much any new built will do

Edited May 31, 2009 by threetimesdead

[MarkG]

A house that you own outright should take a serious amount of effort.

Why? Is this supposed to be one of those 'character building' things?

What would be so awful about a world where people could buy a decent place to live for 5,000 pounds?

At a party a year or so back I was talking to a guy who said than when he visited a rural town in the province he was offered a house for $2,000 but told that he could probably get it for $1,000 if he haggled; there are currently 80 residential properties in the province for under $25,000, many of them are mobile homes or require significant renovations but a quick look shows a small four-bed house in what appears to be livable condition for $18,000.

There's also a business just up the road where you can take your truck, load a house on the back, and then drive it to your land to install; something that would be next to impossible in the UK with its insane planning laws... the real reason why British houses are so damn expensive.

[huw]

The story was this. He was employed by some lord to build his castle. The lord ran out of cash, so he paid the workers in granite. My great grandfather used the granite to build his house - which is still standing and will stand for another couple of centuries. I do not know the exact details, this was at the end of the nineteenth century, but I would reckon his fellow mates who worked on the castle all helped each other out. What is so difficult about it? I remember reading about how Pa built the little house on the prairie in basically a month! Three years if you want an architectural masterpiece with carytids and gragoyles and all that, but one house should only take about one year. And if you were building it yourself you can believe you would make a good job of it! It is like cooking meat - the end result is so much better when you do it yourself.

And the castle is still standing as well.

Great story but we really don't know how many man-hours it took to build that house. The lord was essentially a "distressed seller" of granite for example, it can't have been easy to quarry, shape and transport that stuff back in the day -- lots of labour embodied in it.

Agreed on the settler-style shacks, they can be thrown up quickly given local timber supplies and a helper or two, and it's not reasonable to charge much for them. I reckon I could live in one quite happily given the appropriate context, but I don't think they'd meet most peoples' expectations of what a family home should be.

Edited May 31, 2009 by huw

[ccc]

Why? Is this supposed to be one of those 'character building' things?

What would be so awful about a world where people could buy a decent place to live for 5,000 pounds?

At a party a year or so back I was talking to a guy who said than when he visited a rural town in the province he was offered a house for $2,000 but told that he could probably get it for $1,000 if he haggled; there are currently 80 residential properties in the province for under $25,000, many of them are mobile homes or require significant renovations but a quick look shows a small four-bed house in what appears to be livable condition for $18,000.

There's also a business just up the road where you can take your truck, load a house on the back, and then drive it to your land to install; something that would be next to impossible in the UK with its insane planning laws... the real reason why British houses are so damn expensive.

In the UK where the average person takes that pay home, after tax, in maybe 3 months ? It would be too easy.

Shelter is a basic human necessity. However only having to work 3 months to own a shelter, with running water, electricity, windows etc.. ?

Come on - not reasonable.

Anyway - as for houses in Canada ? I think you are being rather selective with your examples. I have worked and lived in Canada. There is plenty of ridiculousy overpriced housing over in them lands too !!

I do agree though that there is an option in most parts of Canada to own a basic shelter for a relatively small amount of money.

In most areas of the UK that is simply not an option.

[ccc]

Wimbledon88 - What Castle is it ? Just interested to know. I do like Castles. Being a Jock and all !!

[Wimbledon88]

Great story but we really don't know how many man-hours it took to build that house. The lord was essentially a "distressed seller" of granite for example, it can't have been easy to quarry, shape and transport that stuff back in the day -- lots of labour embodied in it.

But the granite came from the same village! And he just paid in kind, I do not think that he sold the granite much below market price. The house is a but + ben (translation = two up two down cottage), quite simple, with two fireplaces at each end, which heated all the water in the house. I refuse to believe something so simple took three years to build. Anyway, like an earlier poster said, the country's housing stock has been already paid for and it is all one big pyramid scam to get each family into wage slavery to do it all over again. It is like tax. There is a relatively fixed money supply (when there was until printy-printy!). But tax has to be paid on each pound note not once, but each time it goes into someone else's hands. That is why I always say: no need to pay tax on that wad of notes, it has already been done X years ago, so I can sleep with a clean conscience that night.

[ccc]

But the granite came from the same village! And he just paid in kind, I do not think that he sold the granite much below market price. The house is a but + ben (translation = two up two down cottage), quite simple, with two fireplaces at each end, which heated all the water in the house. I refuse to believe something so simple took three years to build. Anyway, like an earlier poster said, the country's housing stock has been already paid for and it is all one big pyramid scam to get each family into wage slavery to do it all over again. It is like tax. There is a relatively fixed money supply (when there was until printy-printy!). But tax has to be paid on each pound note not once, but each time it goes into someone else's hands. That is why I always say: no need to pay tax on that wad of notes, it has already been done X years ago, so I can sleep with a clean conscience that night.

When you include all that was involved of course it did. The Granite came from the same village ? So it appeared in the village in perfect blocks ready to rock* !! Of course not. You have to account for all of this.

Anyway - where is this Castle !!

*Pardon the pun.

[Emy74]

7k for a 4 bedroom house in Bulgaria.

http://promarkltd.co.uk/estate_agents/inde...amp;Itemid=9999

I know its another country, but it demonstrates just how stupid our housing based economy has become. A car in Bulgaria costs roughly the same as a house.

I suspect there are many countries in the world where you can pick up a cheap house but I also expect they have the wages to match.

When I was in Jamaica a few years ago the manager at the hotel I was staying at earned the equivalent of about £100 a month and the waiters about £30. I suspect many other 3rd countries are the same. I wonder if they have the same immigration problem in Bulgaria as we have here.

The reality is if no banks existed there would be little employment as how would businesses really expand. If people want to go back to a world of the few masters and many slaves then good luck to them but I cant see how the many would be better off with a system of no lending. Yes properly controlled lending but no lending is a nonense in my opinion.

As far as I'm aware you are not suposed to lend money for profit or borrow in this way under islamic law so maybe people who think that way should try one of those countries.

[Wimbledon88]

When you include all that was involved of course it did. The Granite came from the same village ? So it appeared in the village in perfect blocks ready to rock* !! Of course not. You have to account for all of this.

Anyway - where is this Castle !!

*Pardon the pun.

But the man-hours to quarry the granite were already included in the cost of the granite bought by the lord - the man-hours to make the granite are incorporated inside the market price of the granite, end of story. My great grandfather received the granite for his labour on the castle. End of story.

[MarkG]

In the UK where the average person takes that pay home, after tax, in maybe 3 months ? It would be too easy.

Why? Who gets to decide how 'easy' owning a house should be?

Shelter is a basic human necessity. However only having to work 3 months to own a shelter, with running water, electricity, windows etc.. ? Come on - not reasonable.

Why? Who gets to decide what is and isn't 'reasonable' about owning a house?

British houses are expensive because land is expensive, and land is expensive because of planning restrictions. The entire UK housing market is an artificial construct.

[ccc]

But the man-hours to quarry the granite were already included in the cost of the granite bought by the lord - the man-hours to make the granite are incorporated inside the market price of the granite, end of story. My great grandfather received the granite for his labour on the castle. End of story.

Yes. So that is why you must include all the costs of that Granite getting to your great grandfathers hands if you want to talk about costs/time taken to build etc..

Let's take today. How many hours would you have to work to get enough quality granite delivered to your building site for a basic but n ben ?

Quite a lot I imagine. A lot more than 3 months or even a year - that is for sure.

[ccc]

Why? Who gets to decide how 'easy' owning a house should be?

Why? Who gets to decide what is and isn't 'reasonable' about owning a house?

British houses are expensive because land is expensive, and land is expensive because of planning restrictions. The entire UK housing market is an artificial construct.

Nobody gets to decide how easy owning a house should be.

However - do you honestly believe that working for 3 months is enough to warrent being given a fully functioning house to live in for the rest of your life ?

Come on. You can't actually believe that ?

[huw]

But the granite came from the same village! And he just paid in kind, I do not think that he sold the granite much below market price.

However you cut it, significant labour went into the granite (and slate, timber, nail, glass...) production, which has to be counted in the total labour cost of the house.

The house is a but + ben (translation = two up two down cottage), quite simple, with two fireplaces at each end, which heated all the water in the house. I refuse to believe something so simple took three years to build.

Probably not in elapsed time because they helped each other and didn't have to grow/mine/manufacture their materials. But it wouldn't surprise me if it took that many man years (or more) when you include all the materials and ancillary work.

Anyway, like an earlier poster said, the country's housing stock has been already paid for and it is all one big pyramid scam to get each family into wage slavery to do it all over again. It is like tax. There is a relatively fixed money supply (when there was until printy-printy!). But tax has to be paid on each pound note not once, but each time it goes into someone else's hands. That is why I always say: no need to pay tax on that wad of notes, it has already been done X years ago, so I can sleep with a clean conscience that night.

[bolded bit] I just don't buy this argument. My house is paid for but I'm hardly going to ask less for it than what I can obtain at open auction. If you buy a house aged 20 and sell it aged 80, the fact that you've had 60 years of use out of it is neither here nor there ... why shouldn't the next owner have to pay for his 60 years in the place, just as you did? Unless you want to nationalise the housing stock instead of leaving it in private hands.

I agree that the system is tuned to keep everybody stretched to the limit, and I think it's a great shame that this is so. I suspect, however, that even if the financial system were completely reformed we'd still end up with a bunch of competitive/aggressive people setting the terms of the game for everybody else; it would just happen in a different way.

[Injin]

Nobody gets to decide how easy owning a house should be.

However - do you honestly believe that working for 3 months is enough to warrent being given a fully functioning house to live in for the rest of your life ?

Come on. You can't actually believe that ?

Why not?

This is capitalism - it creates unemployed people. That's the whole point of it.

[Pindar]

Surely it's plain and simple. The cost of a house should represent the cost of the materials and the labour required to construct it. A small mark-up is reasonable but only if the buyer is prepared to pay it and only if real value has been added to the basic construction.

The fact that housing costs are so out of kilter with reality is a reflection of the vanity and folly of the human psyche and the greed of the money lenders.

[Executive Sadman]

something that would be next to impossible in the UK with its insane planning laws... the real reason why British houses are so damn expensive.

Got to have some way to keep the landed gentry and the other 0.5% of the population who own 99% of the land in business. What is crazy is the nimbys that make up the majority of voters support it, cos like we dont want Britain to be concreted over (even if it means making people homeless)