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eric pebble

If We Didn't Borrow Money To Buy Houses, They Would Cost A Fraction Of Todays' Prices.

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WHY DO WE LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS???

Banks use "clever" advertising and PR techniques to persuade the vast majority of the population to borrow money to buy property. Thus - this becomes the norm. Thus - the "price" is the sum of money which, effectively, is decided by the sum of money the Moneylender/Bank is prepared to lend. Especially over recent years, because of the massive fraud of the LIAR LOAN SYSTEM, by which the Moneylenders merely pass on the risk involved to some poor sucker elsewhere, the sum of money lent is risk free - and can therefore be much, much larger than in the past. THUS - the sum of money lent to Mr Anyperson to buy a 2/3 room slavebox is utterly, utterly insane -- and THAT becomes THE NORM.

THUS - the "price" - even though in reality is ABNORMAL - AND INSANE --- passes itself off as THE NORM.

So - "NORMAL" house prices are not normal at all -- but the BANKS/MONEYLENDERS have managed to UTTERLY SKEW & MANIPULATE the "market price" throught the FRAUDULENT MEANS outlined above [and below], and, through "clever" advertising [just look at the amount of adverts/marketing of banks in the media - it is depressinly huge], the majority of people appear to have been persuaded, bizarrely & sadly, that this is the "NORM".

i.e. Because the MAJORITY of people have been persuaded to join the Ponzi/Pyramid Scam [the "housing market"] and "pay" stupid prices for property, the minority are forced to either "buy" into this "market", or not "buy" into it at all. The "norm" is the "market price". But this has been fraudulently manipulated/skewed upwards.

Clear thinking and intelligent people - the minority - are forced either to take it or leave it, stay in/out of the "market".

The "price"/cost has been completely manipulated nevertheless.

IF YOU HAD TO PAY FOR YOUR PROPERTY FROM YOUR POCKET - I.E. SAVINGS - AND THERE WAS NO INSITITUTIONALIZED AND TOTALLY FIXED SYSTEM OF "LENDING/BORROWING" MONEY BY THE BANKING VESTED INTERESTS - THE AVERAGE PROPERTY WOULD COST AROUND £20-30k.......

WE HAVE BEEN TOTALLY AND UTTERLY CONNED.

WE DO NOT QUESTION THE "NORM" OF BORROWING MONEY TO BUY A ROOF OVER OUT HEADS. WE DO NOT SEE THAT THE MONEYLENDERS/BANKERS EFFECTIVELY SET AND DECIDE THE "PRICE" BY THIS MEANS. WE END UP PAYING A RIDICULOUSLY LARGE "PRICE" FOR OUR HOUSES, SLAVING OUR ENTIRE WORKING LIVES TO PAY THE MONEYLENDERS FOR THEM. MANY PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT THE MONEYLENDERS DOUBLE THEIR MONEY FROM "LENDING" US THE "MONEY" TO "BUY" PROPERTY.

WHY CAN PEOPLE NOT WAKE UP TO THIS? PEOPLE WILLINGLY FALL INTO THE TRAP - AND ALSO - CLEVERLY - THE MONEYLENDERS HAVE TURNED HOUSE "BUYING" INTO A PYRAMID SELLING SCAM WHICH - ONCE YOU "BUY INTO" IT - YOU WANT TO KEEP THE WHOLE "PRICES ONLY GO UP" BULLSH1T GOING...... BECAUSE YOU ARE NOW PART OF IT. THE NEW "BUYERS"/BORROWERS THAT WANT TO FOLLOW BEHIND ARE FORCED TO SLAVE MORE AND MORE OF THEIR LIVES TO JOIN IN ON THE "HOUSING LADDER"/SCAM.....

Weird, isn't it!?....... :rolleyes:

Edited by eric pebble

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The last guy I worked for told me he had made more profit by selling the building we worked in than in eight years of doing business there- that cannot be right.

We seem to have created a system where those who speculate on the products of other people's efforts are rewarded far more than those who actualy create the products in the first place.

My former boss more or less abandoned a working business to chase the property dream- and how many others did the same, throwing people of work in the process?

The whole thing is a sad and sorry spectacle, made worse by the ever more desperate efforts of those involved to suck in the new blood they need to keep their stupidity going. The current efforts to pull in the First time buyers with ever more grotesque schemes is just shamfull and disgusting to see.

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To be fair - A basic 3 bedder costs around 60k to build - even with the economies of scale and profits required for the big builders.

I don't think we can ever realistically expect the vast majority of houses to sell for 20-30k.

80-100 fair enough.

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To be fair - A basic 3 bedder costs around 60k to build - even with the economies of scale and profits required for the big builders.

I don't think we can ever realistically expect the vast majority of houses to sell for 20-30k.

80-100 fair enough.

The house builders require housing, the peopel who provide the materials need housing etc etc

housing should cost SFA

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To be fair - A basic 3 bedder costs around 60k to build - even with the economies of scale and profits required for the big builders.

I don't think we can ever realistically expect the vast majority of houses to sell for 20-30k.

80-100 fair enough

How much of that is land costs i wonder? I can't imagine it would be beyond our ability to design houses that could be put up relatively cheaply- the problem is there are just too many with a VI in keeping the costs high.

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Yes, your point is entirely correct. And it's not only houses, money lending has wormed it's way into every facet of life, car loans, store cards etc. Buy before you earn and pay double, that's the way of things now for the majority.

Unless we have some sort of revolution to clear out of the money lenders, the rich and powerful will continue to exploit the weak through the means of big finance. They have the support of the political parties anyway. David Cameron is married into the Rothchild's for crying out loud, the biggest scamming money lenders of the lot!

I see a revolution as being unlikely over loans. Lack of food, political freedom, yes, but probably not loans. Most people don't realise they're being exploited anyway.

In general life isn't fair and complaining about it rarely gets anyone anywhere. My take is that if you can't beat the system, go with the flow. So next time house prices take off (probably be in my 50's by then) I'll be getting as many BTL's as I can get my greedy hands on, then watching the market closely and getting out with a huge profit before it all goes tits again. DON'T COMPLAIN, PLAY THE GAME!!!

Edited by General Congreve

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How much of that is land costs i wonder? I can't imagine it would be beyond our ability to design houses that could be put up relatively cheaply- the problem is there are just too many with a VI in keeping the costs high.

Nah that is the cost of building. Been quite a lot of chat on this forum around the costs. Never reach a consensus but somewhere between 40-80k seems the norm.

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The house builders require housing, the peopel who provide the materials need housing etc etc

housing should cost SFA

You meaning about people providing their own time and services to produce housing ? Then it costs sweet FA as you put your own sweat into it ?

Good plan. Can't see it taking off here in the near future though. Many in the UK are lazy. Very lazy.

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I remember my parents buying a house in 1970, admittedly it wasn't top of the market, a Yorkshire stone 2 bedromm terrace in Bradford. It cost £50 and another £50 to install a new electric supply and rewire. We lived there for about 5 years before the council bought it for 'road widening'. There's an industrial estate there now.

In 1980 I bought my first place, a shop near Newcastle with a large flat above (2 floors plus attic). It needed some work such as rewiring, plumbing etc. which added a few hundred to the £3,500 I paid for it.

Moved about 2 years later as it was difficult for customers to park nearby. Next shop was £6000 (1982).

BTW those were the full cash price not the deposit :lol:

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GREED

And it's a nice get rich quick scheme.

Add in a fair amount of stupidity too.

Even the other day one of my friends was talking about a mutual friend and stated that he would rather buy than waste money renting. He still couldn;t get his head around the fact that even with low interest rates, the interest payment on the mortgage would be greater than renting.

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How much of that is land costs i wonder? I can't imagine it would be beyond our ability to design houses that could be put up relatively cheaply- the problem is there are just too many with a VI in keeping the costs high.

Yes, I think the term you're looking for there is........ a portacabin. :rolleyes:

We can make cheap accomodation now. Have been doing so for decades. Remember those horrible pre-fab concrete council houses form the 60's, etc.

Designing cheap accomodation isn't a problem. Desigining cheap accomodation that is nice to live in, and durable enough to withstand our awful climate for hundreds of years, is more challenging.

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Add in a fair amount of stupidity too.

Even the other day one of my friends was talking about a mutual friend and stated that he would rather buy than waste money renting. He still couldn;t get his head around the fact that even with low interest rates, the interest payment on the mortgage would be greater than renting.

Never got this 'dead money' chat.

All money is dead. You can't take it with you. Paying rent provides you with something that you will not own in the end. Very simple.

If paying rent is dead money then paying interest is dead money. That is a fact.

What happens when these 'renting is dead money' people get on a bus ?

Do they get all aghast at the £1.20 of dead money they have just wasted ? Do they rush off and borrow money to buy their own bus ?

Extreme example - but similar principle.

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Weird, isn't it!?....... :rolleyes:

Indeed it is, Eric!

More generally, if we didn't borrow from the commercial banks then we could hardly buy or sell anything because our money supply would be less than 3% of its present total.

The banking system lends us our means of exchange and charges us handsomely for doing so and yes, that is very weird when you think about it.

We could perfectly well arrange our own collectively issued, debt-free, permanently circulating money as a utility for productive industry and trade.

Our whole economy is forced to operate on a leash held tightly by the banking system and this enables the essentially unproductive banking and financial services "industries" to extort a grossly dissproportionate amount of wealth from the productive economy.

It really is weird that, merely by shuffling numbers about within their computers and by legally enforcing the observance of these numbers, the unproductive moneylenders can acquire and control vast real wealth.

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Nah that is the cost of building. Been quite a lot of chat on this forum around the costs. Never reach a consensus but somewhere between 40-80k seems the norm.

Didn't Ikea do flat pack homes they aren't the only ones either.

Land costs are the key. Cost of building would be less if houses were cheaper as workers then need to be paid less, it is one of those vicious circles.

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Yes, I think the term you're looking for there is........ a portacabin. :rolleyes:

We can make cheap accomodation now. Have been doing so for decades. Remember those horrible pre-fab concrete council houses form the 60's, etc.

Designing cheap accomodation isn't a problem. Desigining cheap accomodation that is nice to live in, and durable enough to withstand our awful climate for hundreds of years, is more challenging.

Some of them are still around !!

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Yes, I think the term you're looking for there is........ a portacabin. :rolleyes:

We can make cheap accomodation now. Have been doing so for decades. Remember those horrible pre-fab concrete council houses form the 60's, etc.

Designing cheap accomodation isn't a problem. Desigining cheap accomodation that is nice to live in, and durable enough to withstand our awful climate for hundreds of years, is more challenging.

I would bet my last pound on a standard portacabin outlasting most of the new[ish] built rubbish with £300-400k price tags round my way.

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Didn't Ikea do flat pack homes they aren't the only ones either.

Land costs are the key. Cost of building would be less if houses were cheaper as workers then need to be paid less, it is one of those vicious circles.

Never thought of that.

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Indeed. And they're still fecking horrible. :lol:

Very true. Although they can't be much worse quality than some of the new builds of today. Some of the new builds I have seen will be in a sorry state in 10 years - never mind 50 !!

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Very true. Although they can't be much worse quality than some of the new builds of today. Some of the new builds I have seen will be in a sorry state in 10 years - never mind 50 !!

That just means perpetual work. Your not thinking this one through are you. Are you determined to have high unemployment?

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I would bet my last pound on a standard portacabin outlasting most of the new[ish] built rubbish with £300-400k price tags round my way.

And none of it will come close to outlasting the (often already several hundred years old) houses built from large granite blocks round my way.

New builds are a waste of money IMO. Why would you buy something so flimsy when you can buy something thats clearly designed to last for centuries, and proven to do so?

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That just means perpetual work. Your not thinking this one through are you. Are you determined to have high unemployment?

Yes - My name is Gordon Broon !!

Pic of a few 1940's pre-fabs still standing in Edinburgh.

0_street_views_-_moredun_park_031467.jpg

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And none of it will come close to outlasting the (often already several hundred years old) houses built from large granite blocks round my way.

New builds are a waste of money IMO. Why would you buy something so flimsy when you can buy something thats clearly designed to last for centuries, and proven to do so?

Nothing to do with the buyers. All to do with the builders ?

Flimsy = profit.

I imagine that is the great plan. Or so it should be. Not quite sure how Barrats etc.. have so much debt. They must be ridiculously badly managed.

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WHY DO WE LET THEM GET AWAY WITH THIS???

Banks use "clever" advertising and PR techniques to persuade the vast majority of the population to borrow money to buy property. Thus - this becomes the norm. Thus - the "price" is the sum of money which, effectively, is decided by the sum of money the Moneylender/Bank is prepared to lend. Especially over recent years, because of the massive fraud of the LIAR LOAN SYSTEM, by which the Moneylenders merely pass on the risk involved to some poor sucker elsewhere, the sum of money lent is risk free - and can therefore be much, much larger than in the past. THUS - the sum of money lent to Mr Anyperson to buy a 2/3 room slavebox is utterly, utterly insane -- and THAT becomes THE NORM.

THUS - the "price" - even though in reality is ABNORMAL - AND INSANE --- passes itself off as THE NORM.

So - "NORMAL" house prices are not normal at all -- but the BANKS/MONEYLENDERS have managed to UTTERLY SKEW & MANIPULATE the "market price" throught the FRAUDULENT MEANS outlined above [and below], and, through "clever" advertising [just look at the amount of adverts/marketing of banks in the media - it is depressinly huge], the majority of people appear to have been persuaded, bizarrely & sadly, that this is the "NORM".

i.e. Because the MAJORITY of people have been persuaded to join the Ponzi/Pyramid Scam [the "housing market"] and "pay" stupid prices for property, the minority are forced to either "buy" into this "market", or not "buy" into it at all. The "norm" is the "market price". But this has been fraudulently manipulated/skewed upwards.

Clear thinking and intelligent people - the minority - are forced either to take it or leave it, stay in/out of the "market".

The "price"/cost has been completely manipulated nevertheless.

IF YOU HAD TO PAY FOR YOUR PROPERTY FROM YOUR POCKET - I.E. SAVINGS - AND THERE WAS NO INSITITUTIONALIZED AND TOTALLY FIXED SYSTEM OF "LENDING/BORROWING" MONEY BY THE BANKING VESTED INTERESTS - THE AVERAGE PROPERTY WOULD COST AROUND £20-30k.......

WE HAVE BEEN TOTALLY AND UTTERLY CONNED.

WE DO NOT QUESTION THE "NORM" OF BORROWING MONEY TO BUY A ROOF OVER OUT HEADS. WE DO NOT SEE THAT THE MONEYLENDERS/BANKERS EFFECTIVELY SET AND DECIDE THE "PRICE" BY THIS MEANS. WE END UP PAYING A RIDICULOUSLY LARGE "PRICE" FOR OUR HOUSES, SLAVING OUR ENTIRE WORKING LIVES TO PAY THE MONEYLENDERS FOR THEM. MANY PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE THAT THE MONEYLENDERS DOUBLE THEIR MONEY FROM "LENDING" US THE "MONEY" TO "BUY" PROPERTY.

WHY CAN PEOPLE NOT WAKE UP TO THIS? PEOPLE WILLINGLY FALL INTO THE TRAP - AND ALSO - CLEVERLY - THE MONEYLENDERS HAVE TURNED HOUSE "BUYING" INTO A PYRAMID SELLING SCAM WHICH - ONCE YOU "BUY INTO" IT - YOU WANT TO KEEP THE WHOLE "PRICES ONLY GO UP" BULLSH1T GOING...... BECAUSE YOU ARE NOW PART OF IT. THE NEW "BUYERS"/BORROWERS THAT WANT TO FOLLOW BEHIND ARE FORCED TO SLAVE MORE AND MORE OF THEIR LIVES TO JOIN IN ON THE "HOUSING LADDER"/SCAM.....

Weird, isn't it!?....... :rolleyes:

Eric - although I totally agree with you that houses prices have been far too high for a while and are still too high, I am not sure it would be sustainable for people to buy houses from savings only, you refer to £20k-£30k for average house but a 3 bed semi would cost significantly more than that to build - even if the workers were paid less as discussed in this thread. And if the worker were paid less then the cheaper house would be less affordable.

I enjoyed reading Fred Harrisons Boom Bust: House Prices, Banking and the Depression of 2010 where he explains how the building societies were set up, so called so people could pool together to build their houses - if you haven't read it, its a must read.

My feeling is that houses (ie not FTB starter slave boxes) should cost around 3.5 times single median salary. FTB could start of with the flats which should be say 2x their salary so that over say 5 years they could pay off a good chunk of the mortgage, making it realistic to buy a house with a decent deposit and a 2.5x-3x mortgage.

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