Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[jonb2]

2 hours ago, dryrot said:

Out in the real world, the EU is suing countries for not taking migrants... https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-europe-migrants-easterners/eu-to-sue-poland-hungary-czech-republic-in-top-court-over-migration-idUKKBN1E02VB

(but stay in you comfy fantasy, if you like! :))

Dryrot, if you check my posts throughout this thread, you will see I understand how the immigration issue should be taken into account by the government. People are scared and worried by it and nobody listened.

However, on analysis - most of the immigration was under both the New Labour and Tory governments in the last 10 years. They had the powers to vet the incomers and adjust benefit tourism. But they did not do it. Their ears fell off a long time ago. Immigration is not a bad thing - unbridled importation of cheap labour under a neo-liberalist corptocracy is.

I have also made the point the argument about Brexit should be judged on the damage to the UK. Not on picking holes in the EU for all its faults. I admit it is far from perfect and like anything - needs to find its feet - like it took 100 years for the USA to work. Understand there are still problems there too. However there is strength in unity.

I despise the current government and the one before - this is where the ire for 98% of the problems should be directed. As most remainers see the EU conveniently set up as a scapegoat by the shits that have run things here for a long time. If I felt that Brexit was, in any way, make things better for the man in the street - I would not be here arguing.

 

 

 

[debtlessmanc]

Did this news make it onto this thread?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

We were assured all the way through the vote that problems such as the enormous numbers of homeless EU citizens in the UK were simply failures of the our politicians to actually apply EU law. No it turns out this was a lie too, we cannot deport non-working homeless EU citizens. There is even a threat that the ECJ will get involved, remember wh have just signed up to EU citizens here being subject to the ECJ for 8 years. Is this not a case of the bullying EU attempting to impose its homeless on us? What are they up to, they claim to be worried about their citizens rights in the UK but the first example they got upset about it the deportation of homeless people sleeping rough? is this really caring for its citizens or the firs of many to come uses of the ECJ to be a right royal pain in the **** to the british people and goverment?

 

[jonb2]

2 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Did this news make it onto this thread?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

We were assured all the way through the vote that problems such as the enormous numbers of homeless EU citizens in the UK were simply failures of the our politicians to actually apply EU law. No it turns out this was a lie too, we cannot deport non-working homeless EU citizens. There is even a threat that the ECJ will get involved, remember wh have just signed up to EU citizens here being subject to the ECJ for 8 years. Is this not a case of the bullying EU attempting to impose its homeless on us? What are they up to, they claim to be worried about their citizens rights in the UK but the first example they got upset about it the deportation of homeless people sleeping rough? is this really caring for its citizens or the firs of many to come uses of the ECJ to be a right royal pain in the **** to the british people and goverment?

 

From the article

" A Nelma spokesman said: “In reality, many homeless people targeted by the Home Office have fallen on hard times and are working but unable to afford accommodation. "

Seems to be what this site is all about.

[debtlessmanc]

Just now, jonb2 said:

From the article

" A Nelma spokesman said: “In reality, many homeless people targeted by the Home Office have fallen on hard times and are working but unable to afford accommodation. "

Seems to be what this site is all about.

So we have a responsibility to solve the housing problem for 500M EU citizens?

[jonb2]

1 minute ago, debtlessmanc said:

So we have a responsibility to solve the housing problem for 500M EU citizens?

Are they all here - bugger, must have missed that.

A couple of posts back - you will see my view of immigration and where most of the blame lies. If you're interested in another's POV.

[debtlessmanc]

2 minutes ago, jonb2 said:

Are they all here - bugger, must have missed that.

A couple of posts back - you will see my view of immigration and where most of the blame lies. If you're interested in another's POV.

I did see it, I agree with blair and the tories not really being interested in limiting immigration. However,  the draw of the UK is not abating, the english language, the existance of migrant communities, lot of (mostly low pay ) jobs but mostly simply that people in the UK are willing to hire overseas people in a pragmatic way and to obey EU law. e.g. academics in the UK from EU (outside UK) 27%, same figure for France and non-french 3%, germany similar number- italy i believe <1% but then they have a real problem with corruption with whole depts being filled with friends and families.

so we are living upto the EU ideal, the endpoint of which seems to be that we ill have a population of 100M all on minimum wage except a dozen billionaires and the most expensive accommodation on the planet.

[rollover]

13 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

So we have a responsibility to solve the housing problem for 500M EU citizens?

 Where did you get the number "500M homeless EU citizens in the UK" from?

[debtlessmanc]

Just now, rollover said:

 Where did you get the number "500M homeless EU citizens in the UK" from?

I took the view that the homelessness of a few was the mutual problem for all the citizens of the EU or is it not a problem for those that have to step over the bodies?

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

UK banks tell May: a Canada-style Brexit deal is not good enough

Britain’s banks have written to Theresa May and Philip Hammond warning that a Canada-style free trade agreement with the EU post-Brexit is not ambitious enough and that alignment with EU rules on finance is crucial. The open letter said the government must place the City at the centre of Brexit trade talks or risk dealing a major blow to the economy. Guardian

 

It looks like it will be bankers exit.

[rollover]

4 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

I took the view that the homelessness of a few was the mutual problem for all the citizens of the EU or is it not a problem for those that have to step over the bodies?

The population of the EU is about 510 million people. Including about 65 million UK citizens.

500M homeless EU citizens in the UK - that is pure nonsense.

[debtlessmanc]

2 minutes ago, rollover said:

The population of the EU is about 510 million people. Including about 65 million UK citizens.y500M homeless EU citizens in the UK - that is pure nonsense.

You are deliberatelty misunderstanding me... as anyone who reads what i wrote will see.

[IMHAL]

39 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Did this news make it onto this thread?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/dec/14/home-office-policy-deport-eu-rough-sleepers-ruled-unlawful

We were assured all the way through the vote that problems such as the enormous numbers of homeless EU citizens in the UK were simply failures of the our politicians to actually apply EU law. No it turns out this was a lie too, we cannot deport non-working homeless EU citizens. There is even a threat that the ECJ will get involved, remember wh have just signed up to EU citizens here being subject to the ECJ for 8 years. Is this not a case of the bullying EU attempting to impose its homeless on us? What are they up to, they claim to be worried about their citizens rights in the UK but the first example they got upset about it the deportation of homeless people sleeping rough? is this really caring for its citizens or the firs of many to come uses of the ECJ to be a right royal pain in the **** to the british people and goverment?

 

You say 'enormous number of EU citizens' , the article mentions 2 or 3.

Is 2 or 3 enormous in your book? or do you have a different source and a bigger number?

[ThePiltdownMan]

13 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

You are deliberatelty misunderstanding me... as anyone who reads what i wrote will see.

It's a good question but nobody's prepared to give you a straight answer for some reason.

[rollover]

17 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

You are deliberatelty misunderstanding me... as anyone who reads what i wrote will see.

It's not deliberately, but I misunderstood your point.

" So we have a responsibility to solve the housing problem for 500M EU citizens? "

The number 500 M is too big and it includes UK citizens.

Edited December 17, 2017 by rollover

[debtlessmanc]

3 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

You say 'enormous number of EU citizens' , the article mentions 2 or 3.

Is 2 or 3 enormous in your book? or do you have a different source and a bigger number?

Sorry i thought everyone knew- The UK has been deporting thousands a year, recently  the number was growing rapidly (up to 5000 last year) but now the EU has told us to cut it out.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-citizens-deportations-rise-uk-home-office-referendum-a7935266.html

 

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by debtlessmanc

[IMHAL]

30 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

Sorry i thought everyone knew- The UK has been deporting thousands a year, recently  the number was growing rapidly (up to 5000 last year) but now the EU has told us to cut it out.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-eu-citizens-deportations-rise-uk-home-office-referendum-a7935266.html

 

 

The article makes it quite clear, the home office appear to have pulled a fast one when no one was looking. They appear to be turfing people out when they have not abused their rights.

Fairs fair if they have committed a criminal offence, but if they have benn working and have fallen on hard times temorarilly they that does seem to rub salt on the wound.

I guess compassion is not part of the brexit dna. Hopefully you guys will never have need of it.

[winkie]

Race to the bottom?......cheap EU labour will be taken up by cheaper rest of the world labour....nothing will change, just more people living on less higher density.

[DeepLurker]

2 hours ago, BuyToLeech said:

The UK media is overwhelmingly right-wing. The media spectrum covers the range from neoliberalism (right-wing) to conservatism (very different, but also right-wing), with a few exceptions. Most, like the Conservative party itself, attempt to be both, on a story by story basis without worrying about the contradictions.

Brexit isn't a left/right argument, it's a split on the right between conservatism (immigration, tradition, military independence) and neoliberalism (free-trade, deregulation, globalisation).

In Agatha Christie terms Its a war between the old colonel and the young reckless American businessman over who inherits Cockington hall.

I often read the above, but I struggle to reconcile it with reality.

The most popular media in the UK is TV. How many of the most popular TV channels are right-wing? How many are pro-Brexit?

Same question for the radio stations.

The only media where right-wing views are strongly represented is print.

[dgul]

8 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

The article makes it quite clear, the home office appear to have pulled a fast one when no one was looking. They appear to be turfing people out when they have not abused their rights.

Fairs fair if they have committed a criminal offence, but if they have benn working and have fallen on hard times temorarilly they that does seem to rub salt on the wound.

I guess compassion is not part of the brexit dna. Hopefully you guys will never have need of it.

I've lost a job in Europe.  There was absolutely no compassion -- there were no benefits (worth having) to be had, and I pretty much had to leave.  I suppose I could have just become homeless, but that would have been a bonkers thing to do.  I had some savings so I suppose I could have stuck it out and got another job there... but why?  I just got back to the UK and got another job (oh, and I wasn't eligible for UK benefits at that point (so didn't get any), but it was okay because there are jobs to be had if you're prepared to work).

And, you know what?  I don't think that any of it was particularly unfair.

[thecrashingisles]

16 minutes ago, DeepLurker said:

I often read the above, but I struggle to reconcile it with reality.

The most popular media in the UK is TV. How many of the most popular TV channels are right-wing? How many are pro-Brexit?

Same question for the radio stations.

The only media where right-wing views are strongly represented is print.

Why do you equate pro-Brexit with right-wing?

[jonb2]

33 minutes ago, DeepLurker said:

I often read the above, but I struggle to reconcile it with reality.

The most popular media in the UK is TV. How many of the most popular TV channels are right-wing? How many are pro-Brexit?

Same question for the radio stations.

The only media where right-wing views are strongly represented is print.

I agree about TV. The BBC has lost its balls since people like Paxman left. Questions need asking, TPTB need intense scrutiny. It's no longer a question of right and left. It's now mainly lies or complacency. It needs searing insight and guts.

TV is declining among the young.

Edited December 17, 2017 by jonb2

[BorrowToLeech]

30 minutes ago, DeepLurker said:

I often read the above, but I struggle to reconcile it with reality.

The most popular media in the UK is TV. How many of the most popular TV channels are right-wing? How many are pro-Brexit?

Same question for the radio stations.

The only media where right-wing views are strongly represented is print.

TV has more legal restrictions, so tends to be more moderate, which is the reason Sky news isn't Fox News.  That means they all essentially support the status quo, which is right-wing neoliberalism.

You can have radio 4 panel shows, I'll give you those.

 

 

[macca13]

On 06/12/2017 at 12:54 AM, dugsbody said:

Yup, blame anyone except our own inept and morally corrupt governments who we keep voting in. That should solve the problem. 

When you say everything is worse, what specifically? Housing is a shambles, that is true, but if you actually pay attention and engage in factual debate, you'll note that housing is a shambles across the whole world but mostly only in popular metropolitan areas. The reason is because countries have engaged in free trade with the developing world, who make stuff cheaper than us. Which has meant that low skilled manufacturing has disappeared from developed nations and high skilled services and manufacturing has taken its place. This has led to a concentration of wealth in metropolitan areas, which along with the financialisation of housing, results in generational inequality of house prices, but only in those areas. In many other areas, as anecdotally confirmed on here fairly often, housing is cheaper than 10 years ago.

And this has ****** all to do with the EU and brexit won't solve it. 

Other problems that I have are poor implementation of planning permission (UK gov fault), poor planning for an ageing population (UK gov fault, going to get worse with fewer working age immigrants), poorly focused austerity (should have invested in the regions infrastructure and built tons of houses in the metro areas, UK gov fault). Oh and also a pet peeve of mine is unending support for high end health care. No, if people want to live longer then they should pay for the expensive life prolonging healthcare themselves. Rather redirect all that NHS money into the every day functions, reduce doctor waiting times by hiring more doctors, more nurses, more A&E staff. Stop bribing the elderly for votes.

What other issues do you have that you blame on the EU?  

Things that are worse!

traffic 30 min journeys tak 1hr 30 that’s my life, my time lost every day stuck in traffic.. you can’t get that back.. 

train journeys (smell my pits)

just walking around (too many people)

gun crime, knife crime, FGM, acid attacks, honour killings, moped crime, forced arrange marriage, community segregation.. people are sick of people! More people will make that problem worse..

housing, hmo’s, slum living forcing brits in to worse standards of living like third world slums

gp used to be same day, now over 1 week

tried to get my kid into a school, all 5 schools applied for were full!

Is immigration a net positive? 

I think no it’s not, I started paying tax at 16, I will work until I retire at 105.. 

imgrants are taking lots of the low paid work, which means low tax/no tax.. car wash, coffee shop, cleaners, labourers .. lots of these jobs are done by immigrants. My thought on this is immigration is cause and effect, the more we bring in the more services are needed.. like a never ending spiral.. If you are bringing in service jobs they add nothing to the economy if they are there to service others working in service and not paying any tax and sending money home. 

where my Gran lives, immigrants are turning up in their 60’s going straight into retirement acomodation.. not paying into the system, but taking straight out.. 

i don’t think the jobs they are doing pay enough to provide care for themselves in old age, if they are older when they arrive 40/50 they may not pay enough in therefore bankrupt the system that Brits may require in old age. 

none of it makes sense, it’s obvious to me that it’s all to enrich the elites, our lives are worthless to them, we can be replaced.. they will use anyone to make themselves richer and then lie and tell us it’s for our own good..

[macca13]

We import 65% of our food

we have killed 70% of our pollinating insects in the last 10 years

so no polinating insects, over half our food imported.. mass starvation of millions just round the corner.. 

By 2100 we will have wiped out 50% of the planets species... 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/25/half-all-species-extinct-end-century-vatican-conference

Sea level is rising and will flood coastal areas and towns along tidal rivers.. thermal expansion means increases in earths temperature will expand the sea water (hot water has a greater mass) along with melting ice caps by several meters by 2100

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sea-level-could-rise-at-least-6-meters/

mass migration from uninhabitable areas of the planet to Europe will further pressurise dwindling food stocks.. 

NO MORE PEOPLE!

f##k the economy 

f##k Europe

we need to plant trees and reduce our population to face the disaster ahead.. 

listen to scientists  not bankers and politicians

This is happening.. no more migration.. otherwise your kids and their kids will suffer..

 

Edited December 17, 2017 by macca13

[IMHAL]

5 minutes ago, macca13 said:

We import 65% of our food

we have killed 70% of our pollinating insects in the last 10 years

so no polinating insects, over half our food imported.. mass starvation of millions just round the corner.. 

By 2100 we will have wiped out 50% of the planets species... 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/25/half-all-species-extinct-end-century-vatican-conference

Sea level is rising and will flood coastal areas and towns along tidal rivers.. thermal expansion means increases in earths temperature will expand the sea water (hot water has a greater mass) along with melting ice caps by several meters by 2100

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sea-level-could-rise-at-least-6-meters/

mass migration from uninhabitable areas of the planet to Europe will further pressurise dwindling food stocks.. 

NO MORE PEOPLE!

f##k the economy 

f##k Europe

we need to plant trees and reduce our population to face the disaster ahead.. 

listen to scientists  not bankers and politicians

if I told you the phone in your hand would be more powerful than a computer in the 90’s I would be classed as mad.. this is happening.. no more migration.. otherwise your kids and their kids will suffer.. 

 

I sympathise with your concerns, but brexit will not deliver what you want.