Brexit What Happens Next Thread ---multiple merged threads.

[pig]

1 hour ago, debtlessmanc said:

oh for goodness sake- of course not, there is a connection i am trying to make between the wealthy elite suppressing wages for their personal benefit. It is a symptom of the mass use of minimum wage labour from other EU countries that we also have homeless people from those states.

It always come back to this doesnt it? he is a racist, he is a little englander etc what other possible reasons can he have for being upset that we have turned into a low wage low skill economy? 

No i am just saying that historically the availability of cheap mass labour was used to control people. That went away in the early part of this century because social and technological changes. It has now been brought back by the means of the EU, it is not the cheap labours fault it is those that would keeps us in our places. I am lucky at my age i went through the system that gave me a good, free, education and where there was not the insane competition for jobs. 

How on earth can growing the population in 8 years more than it grew in the last 35 years at the same time as stagnating wages and productivity do any good for the country and its resources in the longer term?

In short EU homeless are worth being concerned about - not in the slightest worth panicking or leaving the EU over.

Whatever your motive it just sounds ‘and another thing’  post-rationalised after the fact of your outlook. It’s comes across as a bit  of shallow Leave ‘marketing’  no doubt breeding resentment in people with no sense of perspective - so maybe worth it ?

 

[debtlessmanc]

1 hour ago, pig said:

In short EU homeless are worth being concerned about - not in the slightest worth panicking or leaving the EU over.

Whatever your motive it just sounds ‘and another thing’  post-rationalised after the fact of your outlook. It’s comes across as a bit  of shallow Leave ‘marketing’  no doubt breeding resentment in people with no sense of perspective - so maybe worth it ?

 

Such interesting comments, it really is like some modern day reformation, "dont leave the church it will reform honestly. " I cannot see the EU reforming- Sense of perspective? i gave evidence going back to the peasants revolt of the problems i see.

Ever wondered why the EU is so paranoid about referenda? well it was founded in the shadow of WW2 and hitler was elected and used referenda to his own ends. so the EU at it its heart does not really trust democracy. Just like (for instance) islam was a persecuted sect at one point and remains a bit paranoid about other religions and christianity had to survive roman persecution and so has the concept of martyrdom

The EU has capitalism at its heart from its foundation. What happens as mankind goes forward and automation and robots/AI do all the work? We will have to move away from that form of capitalism of there will be real trouble. I just happen to think that the EU cannot adapt to that, thats all. I've already stated that i wanted a form of EEC as a placemarker until we found a better way. Instead we have lurched to more and more capitalist neoliberalism.

is the EU to blame for this? does the average person care, what i am on about? I suppose that it is very easy to dismiss my concerns the way many have here. I for one can only speak what i see as the obvious. The EU is another oligarchical collectivist european movement.

Am i leaver propaganda? never converted anyone, only post online, would be hung from a lamp post at work.

do i wear a tin foil hat? yes -every night,  my wife too. this the HPC for christs sake

Edited December 18, 2017 by debtlessmanc

[debtlessmanc]

9 hours ago, IMHAL said:

I gave up with him - goldfish to put it politely. He makes CCC sound reasonable.

pond life to put it politely, what do you know about me, other than i am not an adherent of your religion

Edited December 18, 2017 by debtlessmanc
t**t

[debtlessmanc]

3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Its not rambling the theme is two sentences- Historically shortage of labour gives rise to social mobility, excess of cheap labour suppresses mobility and meets the aims of the wealthy rulers, the EU is the latest mechanism used to do this. It is not a quaker social conscience movement but a kind casino played by countries to see who can get most out of it. 

When i am completely straight and make my points. no-one replies. Are you not worried that the jobs market in other european countries is nowhere as open to people educated in the UK as ours is to those from other EU states (i gave the stats above and refs)? It really is like debating with the religious faithful.

Mr IMHAL,

no opinion on employment stats across the EU? care to give a reason why the rest of the EU wont employ us?

t**t like all the others

 

[slawek]

19 minutes ago, debtlessmanc said:

pond life to put it politely, what do you know about me, other than i am not an adherent of your religion

It wasn't very wise to blag about your monthly income. Good you have removed it. 

[Guest]

3 hours ago, pig said:

In short EU homeless are worth being concerned about - not in the slightest worth panicking or leaving the EU over.

Whatever your motive it just sounds ‘and another thing’  post-rationalised after the fact of your outlook. It’s comes across as a bit  of shallow Leave ‘marketing’  no doubt breeding resentment in people with no sense of perspective - so maybe worth it ?

Why are ad hominems (with overtones of paranoia in this one) so beloved by remainers?

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

Brexit divorce bill 'could be an extra £8.8 billion'

The briefing note for MPs by the Library, Parliament’s renowned team of impartial experts, stated: “It appears that the UK Government’s estimate does not include contingent liabilities. If included, these liabilities - which are dependent on the outcome of uncertain future events - add around Euro 10 billion [£8.8 billion].” The potential costs were left out of the Government’s main estimate of an exit bill of between £35 billion and £39 billion on the grounds the risk of default was very remote.

The figure came as a surprise to MPs.  Mr Bone a leading Brexit-backer, said: “Everyone was led to believe the total would be a maximum of £39 billion.   ES

 

 

[Sheeple Splinter]

On 25/11/2017 at 10:11 PM, Sheeple Splinter said:

On 25/11/2017 at 7:05 PM, pig said:

That agenda is worth further consideration  though.

Underneath it seems to describe a fear of losing national autonomy (whatever the reality is in practice).

In turn, that seems to have been superglued to the insecurities of the white anglophiles (and needless to say  onto full on xenophobia).

Hence an almost incontinence of bullsh1t theories nevertheless founded on the success of colour/class/culture coding of pre-modern/Imperial Britain - meaning especially the role of white English.

Isnt that what needs addressing ? 

I’m kind of more concerned by where the ‘wilful credulity’ is coming from than the actual arguments it spawns.

EDIT

Jusr to be clear while the slippery slide into xenophobia/racism is obvious that’s not specifically what I’m getting at.

BUMP 

On 11/10/2017 at 8:41 PM, Sheeple Splinter said:

Can you explain why controlled immigration is xenophobic?

BUMP!

Third time lucky 

[Sheeple Splinter]

1 hour ago, highYield said:

Why are ad hominems (with overtones of paranoia in this one) so beloved by remainers?

Herd mentality?

[Sheeple Splinter]

4 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Such interesting comments, it really is like some modern day reformation, "dont leave the church it will reform honestly. " I cannot see the EU reforming- Sense of perspective? i gave evidence going back to the peasants revolt of the problems i see.

Ever wondered why the EU is so paranoid about referenda? well it was founded in the shadow of WW2 and hitler was elected and used referenda to his own ends. so the EU at it its heart does not really trust democracy. Just like (for instance) islam was a persecuted sect at one point and remains a bit paranoid about other religions and christianity had to survive roman persecution and so has the concept of martyrdom

The EU has capitalism at its heart from its foundation. What happens as mankind goes forward and automation and robots/AI do all the work? We will have to move away from that form of capitalism of there will be real trouble. I just happen to think that the EU cannot adapt to that, thats all. I've already stated that i wanted a form of EEC as a placemarker until we found a better way. Instead we have lurched to more and more capitalist neoliberalism.

is the EU to blame for this? does the average person care, what i am on about? I suppose that it is very easy to dismiss my concerns the way many have here. I for one can only speak what i see as the obvious. The EU is another oligarchical collectivist european movement.

Am i leaver propaganda? never converted anyone, only post online, would be hung from a lamp post at work.

do i wear a tin foil hat? yes -every night,  my wife too. this the HPC for christs sake

Productivity will continue to rise.... wait a minute...

Quote

IMO Carwash pulls sale

IMO Carwash has become the latest private equity sale to be pulled as the company's owners try to refinance the company....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/9434464/IMO-Carwash-pulls-sale.html

Of course posters care.... just look at the number of responses. 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Sheeple Splinter
image added

[pig]

13 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

BUMP!

Third time lucky 

Er no I can’t. Can you ?

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

UK cannot have a special deal for the City, says EU's Brexit negotiator

Michel Barnier said it was unavoidable that British banks and financial firms would lose the passports that allow them to trade freely in the EU, as a result of any decision to quit the single market.

“There is no place [for financial services]. There is not a single trade agreement that is open to financial services. It doesn’t exist.” He said the outcome was a consequence of “the red lines that the British have chosen themselves. In leaving the single market, they lose the financial services passport.” Guardian

 

No cherry picking.

[Sheeple Splinter]

5 hours ago, IMHAL said:

The actual population growth across the EU is roughly neutral - so not quite sure why the 'superstate EU' is a beef for you??? - why don't you post on forums where populatipon growth is an issue, India for example.

Genuinly puzzled at the abrupt changes of tak in your frankly, incoherent rambling.

 

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Population,_EU-28,_1960-2017_(at_1_January,_million_persons).png

[rollover]

 

Quote

 

David Davis to warn EU

Brexit secretary David Davis will warn the European commission that it cannot “cherrypick some sectors” when negotiating a trade deal. The UK planned to treat goods and services as inseparable. Responding to EU figures setting out their stall, “they either want to have a broad economic relationship with the UK, or they don’t”. The source dismissed the idea that Britain would have to choose between a simple free trade agreement, which would focus largely on goods but not on the services that make up almost 80% of the UK economy, or a more comprehensive arrangement inside the single market and customs union. Guardian

 

It will be piece of cake. Isn't it?

[Sheeple Splinter]

1 hour ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

On 11/10/2017 at 8:41 PM, Sheeple Splinter said:

Can you explain why controlled immigration is xenophobic?

 

1 hour ago, pig said:

Er no I can’t. Can you ?

 I can't because controlled immigration isn't, but since you frequently use xenophobia/c to describe leave voters, I had hoped that you would be able to. 

      Here's one of your previous posts again:

1 hour ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

On 25/11/2017 at 7:05 PM, pig said:

That agenda is worth further consideration  though.

Underneath it seems to describe a fear of losing national autonomy (whatever the reality is in practice).

In turn, that seems to have been superglued to the insecurities of the white anglophiles (and needless to say  onto full on xenophobia).

Hence an almost incontinence of bullsh1t theories nevertheless founded on the success of colour/class/culture coding of pre-modern/Imperial Britain - meaning especially the role of white English.

Isnt that what needs addressing ? 

I’m kind of more concerned by where the ‘wilful credulity’ is coming from than the actual arguments it spawns.

EDIT

Jusr to be clear while the slippery slide into xenophobia/racism is obvious that’s not specifically what I’m getting at.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2017 by Sheeple Splinter
typo

[IMHAL]

3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

pond life to put it politely, what do you know about me, other than i am not an adherent of your religion

I was referingb o the fact that you argue one point, switch to another and then come back to the first point even when you have 'been educated'. Hence a goldfish in a bowl, you know, like forgetfull.

[IMHAL]

1 hour ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

 

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Population,_EU-28,_1960-2017_(at_1_January,_million_persons).png

The figures i saw showed population growth for the eu on average to be roughly 0.2% per year. This does not take into account any net migration into the eu from outside the eu.

The point mr nodebtmanc was making is the population growth would kill mankind ie a global phenomena - my point is that europe is not the source of such concern, because its internal growth rate is reasonable low.

[IMHAL]

3 hours ago, debtlessmanc said:

Mr IMHAL,

no opinion on employment stats across the EU? care to give a reason why the rest of the EU wont employ us?

t**t like all the others

 

Well, there are certainly no laws or policies created by the eu to prevent the brits from working anywhere else in the eu. The rest of the eu countries dont speak english and brits are not that great at foreign languages so that would be an obvious barrier and i think would in itself have a massive impact on the stats. 

There is another factor that applies to some countries, eg italy, greece where nepotism is a really big problem, not just in preventing qualified  foreign nationals from getting the job, but for qualified locals to who get pushed aside because they dont know the brother of the boss.

These cultural issues are big problems for some of these countries - because there business suffer and in the end tbere country suffers. 

[IMHAL]

2 hours ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

BUMP!

Third time lucky 

I'll bite since im on a roll.

Regarding the xenophobia, controlled immigration in itself is not xenophobic. 

We have the capability to control iimmigration through a number of mechanisms - which we choose not to use.

What is xenophobic are the numerous posts on here that insinuate that those who have been allowed into this country legitimatly are spongers, criminals,  money launderers, traffickers etc .......as a people.

I personally find that type of behaviour offensive on a human level and i am inclined to take no prisoners when it comes to this - so if one finds themselves  on the receiving end of this ..... then they probably deserve it and i make no apologies, especially so when it is done in such a  way where nasy and cowardly insinuations are made, supposedly innocently.

It is without doubt that some of these people who argue for controlled immigration on here, who are xenophobes, that does not make them all so.

Edited December 19, 2017 by IMHAL

[Sheeple Splinter]

42 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

The figures i saw showed population growth for the eu on average to be roughly 0.2% per year. This does not take into account any net migration into the eu from outside the eu.

The point mr nodebtmanc was making is the population growth would kill mankind ie a global phenomena - my point is that europe is not the source of such concern, because its internal growth rate is reasonable low.

Hmm... a link would be useful.

I thought dlm's point was migration into the EU and intra-EU migration was an issue but better to wait for him.

This may be of general interest:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Main_countries_of_citizenship_and_birth_of_the_foreign_foreign-born_population,_1_January_2016_(¹)_(in_absolute_numbers_and_as_a_percentage_of_the_total_foreign_foreign-born_population).png

[thecrashingisles]

Well worth watching if you have an hour spare

 

[IMHAL]

3 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

Hmm... a link would be useful.

I thought dlm's point was migration into the EU and intra-EU migration was an issue but better to wait for him.

This may be of general interest:

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Main_countries_of_citizenship_and_birth_of_the_foreign_foreign-born_population,_1_January_2016_(¹)_(in_absolute_numbers_and_as_a_percentage_of_the_total_foreign_foreign-born_population).png

Nah.. his point was population growth in general.......killing....... 'mankind'.

[Sheeple Splinter]

28 minutes ago, IMHAL said:

I'll bite since im on a roll.

1. Regarding the xenophobia, controlled immigration in itself is not xenophobic. 

2. We have the capability to control iimmigration through a number of mechanisms - which we choose not to use.

3. What is xenophobic are the numerous posts on here that insinuate that those who have been allowed into this country legitimatly are spongers, criminals,  money launderers, traffickers etc .......as a people.

4. I personally find that type of behaviour offensive on a human level and i am inclined to take no prisoners when it comes to this - so if one finds themselves  on the receiving end of this ..... then they probably deserve it and i make no apologies, especially so when it is done in such a  way where nasy and cowardly insinuations are made, supposedly innocently.

1. Quite. 

2. What do you base this assertion on?

3. Can you link to any of these posts?

4. I presume your retribution follows the linked posts to Q.3 then? 

[IMHAL]

22 minutes ago, Sheeple Splinter said:

1. Quite. 

2. What do you base this assertion on?

3. Can you link to any of these posts?

4. I presume your retribution follows the linked posts to Q.3 then? 

1 - some commonality wehay

2 - the benefits system, apparently the cause of all brexiters woes, allowing asecion of the ee countries  years before anyone else..... plus we have full control of none eu migration which is and has been the biggest constituent of immigration..............where have you been? Did i really need to explain this to you?

3 - do your own homework

4 - yes - so this is a good place to start YOUR homework - if it is found i have been unjust in my reprisals i will happily and unreservedly apologise.

Edited December 19, 2017 by IMHAL

[Sheeple Splinter]

1 minute ago, IMHAL said:

1 - some commonality wehay

2 - the benefits system, apparently the cause of all brexiters woes, allowing asecion of the ee countries  years before anyone else..... plus we have full control of none eu migration which is and has been the biggest constituent of immigration..............where have you been? Did i really need to explain this to you?

3 - do your own homework

4 - yes - so this is a good place to start YOUR homework - if you find i have been unjust in my reprisals i will happily and unreservedly apologise.

1. 

2. Benefit tourism is just one of the concerns regarding FoM. By the way, other EU members are having issues with benefit tourism too. RotW immigration is visa controlled i.e. skills, study & financial security and the gap was closing... 50:50 in 2016. 

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/november2017

3. I have but most of vitriol is in the domain of the remainers e.g. xenophobia (Mooted now ) 

4. Was it you that accused ccc of being a racist?