The Ukraine Chernobyl Thread

[stormymonday_2011]

I shall not see the great war but you will see it and it will start in the east

Otto Von Bismarck

[Sancho Panza]

in the videos you can see the "protesters" are more organised than the riot police.

what kind of riot police move in the other direction as their colleagues are being dragged away, unconscious into the protesting masses?

Riot police that are outnumbered and outgunned.Until you've been in a situation like that,it's easy to critiscise.Do the most for the most.

My experience of the Ukraine tells me that there's a lot of really hard nosed mother******s knocking about the place.

The reality is that our police were found wanting when a few teenage street gangs kicked off.

Edited February 18, 2014 by Sancho Panza

[long time lurking]

I think the West is playing silly b*ggers in the Ukraine. Putin will not let the Ukraine move away from Russian influence for all sorts of reasons. He can turn the gas supply off any time he likes.

I suspect the Americans, and probably the EU, just wants to put pressure on him bearing in mind that Russian and Chinese ships have begun joint exercises again, that in the past 12 months Russia bombers have been flying off the coasts off many European countries, Japan and North America. Then, of course, there is Syria.

Edited February 18, 2014 by long time lurking

[interestrateripoff]

I think the West is playing silly b*ggers in the Ukraine. Putin will not let the Ukraine move away from Russian influence for all sorts of reasons. He can turn the gas supply off any time he likes.

I suspect the Americans, and probably the EU, just wants to put pressure on him bearing in mind that Russian and Chinese ships have begun joint exercises again, that in the past 12 months Russia bombers have been flying off the coasts off many European countries, Japan and North America. Then, of course, there is Syria.

Whilst I appreciate that Russia will not want to lose the Ukraine there may be a small matter of what it's people want. The Russians have no one to blame but themselves for countries wanting to move away from them. Poland would naturally want to p155 off the Russians due to what happened in WWII.

However the Russians are nervous because of the its Navel bases in the Black sea.

[interestrateripoff]

Given the current political turmoil in the Ukraine, could the Ukraine be an economic tipping point?

[Errol]

As I said about a month ago, this is a job for the army not the police. The army need to take to the streets and start shooting people. It's a war not a civil disturbance.

The mob needs to either surrender or be totally destroyed. There can be no backing down now.

[interestrateripoff]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/02/19/us-ukraine-idUSBREA1G0OU20140219

Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich accused pro-European opposition leaders on Wednesday of trying to seize power by force after at least 26 people died in the worst violence since the former Soviet republic gained independence.

European Union leaders said they were urgently preparing targeted sanctions against those responsible for a crackdown on protesters who have been occupying central Kiev for almost three months since Yanukovich spurned a far-reaching trade deal with the EU and accepted a $15-billion Russian bailout.

The sprawling nation of 46 million people with an ailing economy and endemic corruption has become the object of a geopolitical tug-of-war between Moscow and the West. That was played out in hand-to-hand fighting through the night, lit by blazing barricades on Kiev's Independence Square, or Maidan.

Russian President Vladimir Putin's spokesman insisted the Kremlin was sticking to a policy of not intervening in Ukraine, although his point man has called for action to crush the protests. The Kremlin said Putin and Yanukovich spoke by telephone overnight, calling the events an attempted coup.

Is the Ukraine about to sink into a civil war?

[The Eagle]

The Ukraine is only protecting itself from financial warfare by the western bankster cabal, in order to not end up like Greece.

[goldbug9999]

The Ukraine

There is no "the" since the USSR dissolved.

[okaycuckoo]

As I said about a month ago, this is a job for the army not the police. The army need to take to the streets and start shooting people. It's a war not a civil disturbance.

The mob needs to either surrender or be totally destroyed. There can be no backing down now.

You're a charming fellow traveller.

[Errol]

You're a charming fellow traveller.

You don't think the UK/US would use lethal force if an armed mob sat outside The Houses of Parliament/in Washington killing policemen, setting fire to buildings, stealing weapons and generally engaging in terrorist activity?

Policemen in American kill people for far less almost every day.

These protesting fools have been offered the chance to leave on numerous occasions. I see no reason to spare any of them now.

Edited February 19, 2014 by Errol

[Dorkins]

These protesting fools have been offered the chance to leave on numerous occasions. I see no reason to spare any of them now.

If politicians give the order to start killing civilians, their ability to remain in power (and quite possibly their ability to remain alive) will dramatically decline. Soldiers are human beings with friends and relatives and don't much like being told to start shooting fellow citizens. Their willingness to follow orders is finite, and when the army is no longer on your side it's game over for the established political class.

[Kalyayev]

As I said about a month ago, this is a job for the army not the police. The army need to take to the streets and start shooting people. It's a war not a civil disturbance.

The mob needs to either surrender or be totally destroyed. There can be no backing down now.

And as I contemplate such a human being, these sentences still come to my mind today as formerly:"That passion is better than Stoicism and hypocrisy, that being honest in evil is still better than losing oneself to the morality of tradition, that a free human being can be good as well as evil, but that the unfree human being is a blemish upon nature and has no share in any heavenly or earthly comfort; finally, that everyone who wishes to become free must become free through his own endeavor, and that freedom does not fall into any man's lap as a miraculous gift"

[okaycuckoo]

You don't think the UK/US would use lethal force if an armed mob sat outside The Houses of Parliament/in Washington killing policemen, setting fire to buildings, stealing weapons and generally engaging in terrorist activity?

Policemen in American kill people for far less almost every day.

These protesting fools have been offered the chance to leave on numerous occasions. I see no reason to spare any of them now.

Killing civilians means you've lost the right to govern.

Defining them as combatants is an admission of civil war.

This isn't riots on the streets of London. It's an uprising against a corrupt state.

[TheCountOfNowhere]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620

The truce lasted as long as a free market tory recovery.

Police snipers shooting protesters from roofs it is reported.

Brave men, protecting the state from terrorist/rioters. They'd best hope the protestors don't win.

[Billy soy]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620

The truce lasted as long as a free market tory recovery.

Police snipers shooting protesters from roofs it is reported.

Brave men, protecting the state from terrorist/rioters. They'd best hope the protestors don't win.

RT is reporting that protesters have raided domestic security buildings and armouries around the country stealing 1500 firearms and 100,000 rounds of ammo.

Yankovich is labelling protesters as terrorists and brought in his counter terrorists.

Depending on how brutal they are suppressing the people will determine how many more protesters or army units will defect to the rebels over time. IMO it' will not be long.

[NatterJackToad]

this escalated quickly....sniper fire.

and...

http://www.radiosvoboda.org/media/video/25270710.html

[EUBanana]

Apparently support for the EU is strong in the west, where there are lots of ethnic Ukrainians.

Support for Russia on the other hand is strong in the east, where there are lots of ethnic Russians.

The pro-EU guys have a very slight numerical advantage versus the anti, but clearly that is way more nuanced already then the heroic protesters against the fascist state. Pooty-poot over in Russia meanwhile declared a while ago that he wanted to protect Russians outside Russia, Sudeten German style, and has for a long time been using that excuse to get former Soviet republics on board through fair means and foul.

The EU and the US no doubt have their oar in as well.

I'm sure the intelligence services of East and West have much to do with this.

[Errol]

Yankovich is labelling protesters as terrorists

Absolutely spot on.

What do you think would happen in the UK if a large group of people raided an army base, stole military grade weapons and marched on the Houses of Parliament (or sat in Parliament Square shooting policemen and setting fire to buildings)?

Answer - They would all be shot if they refused to put down their weapons.

This is domestic terrorism. The mob needs to be controlled; and quickly.

[CrashInHand]

From BBC news live feed ~ 14:27 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26269221

Kal, Sevastopol emails: Banking system on the verge of collapse, queues of hundreds of people desperately trying to withdraw money but nothing given.

Not sure use of military force vs a banking run is going to go down to well.

Ukraine Hryvnia is going fubar http://www.exchangerates.org.uk/GBP-UAH-exchange-rate-history.html

[okaycuckoo]

Absolutely spot on.

What do you think would happen in the UK if a large group of people raided an army base, stole military grade weapons and marched on the Houses of Parliament (or sat in Parliament Square shooting policemen and setting fire to buildings)?

Answer - They would all be shot if they refused to put down their weapons.

This is domestic terrorism. The mob needs to be controlled; and quickly.

That has happened in the UK within living memory.

Terrorism was used by all sides, including the state.

[Billy soy]

Absolutely spot on.

What do you think would happen in the UK if a large group of people raided an army base, stole military grade weapons and marched on the Houses of Parliament (or sat in Parliament Square shooting policemen and setting fire to buildings)?

Answer - They would all be shot if they refused to put down their weapons.

This is domestic terrorism. The mob needs to be controlled; and quickly.

I sympathise with the protesters on this one Errol, the state should serve the will of the people. If the ukrainians want out of russias orbit and into the E.U thats for them to decide. Not the suits behind closed doors.

[stormymonday_2011]

I'm sure the intelligence services of East and West have much to do with this.

You can bet your last Euro, Dollar and Rouble on that point.

The Ukraine like Syria is just another set on which the Great Power rivalries are being fought out. The current regime and its opponents are just pawns in the game. The danger to the west is that a lot of blood was spilled on this land in the last 100 years and the stakes are high particularly for the Russians. The latter have historically been prepared to go the extra mile to win even if the consequences are appalling a point any western politician needs to keep in mind when considering how far to push them. Despite the changes in the world in my lifetime the UK is still only a few minutes from nuclear annihilation if it all kicks off. It is worth remembering that most of the cold war Armageddon scenarios that were gamed by the military often started with precisely the type of civil unrest in Eastern Europe we are now seeing in the Ukraine.

Edited February 20, 2014 by stormymonday_2011

[dances with sheeple]

You can bet your last Euro, Dollar and Rouble on that point.

The Ukraine like Syria is just another set on which the Great Power rivalries are being fought out. The current regime and its opponents are just pawns in the game. The danger to the west is that a lot of blood was spilled on this land in the last 100 years and the stakes are high particularly for the Russians. The latter have historically been prepared to go the extra mile to win even if the consequences are appalling a point any western politician needs to keep in mind when considering how far to push them. Despite the changes in the world in my lifetime the UK is still only a few minutes from nuclear annihilation if it all kicks off. It is worth remembering that most of the cold war Armageddon scenarios that were gamed by the military often started with precisely the type of civil unrest in Eastern Europe we are now seeing in the Ukraine.

I remember seeing a shooting star for the first time, I`m guessing I was about 10 maybe slightly older, I had just stepped out of my grandparents house and was heading home when I looked up and saw this sudden flash across the sky, and it did last for a second or two that seemed like ages. Might sound strange now, but my first panicky thought, just for a second, was Nuclear Attack! Then my rational mind kicked in and said No, shooting star, that is what they must look like (could have been anything burning up in the earths atmosphere I suppose) But that was the paranoia of the time (Late 70`s this must have been)

[dances with sheeple]

Oh, bloke on Newsnight was saying that Angela Merkel was coordinating the anti government protest because El Presidento wouldn`t sign up with her lot.