Work For Dole

[Injin]

I'm not labouring under any misapprehensions. Cause and effect in social policy *could* be studied. It never is. At least not in this country.

I just don't get the logic that says the underclass would exist with or without benefits, so we should pay them benefits. If you're of the opinion that they're going to be scoundrels anyway how can you justify paying them? Why not just stop the benefits, save ourselves ITRO £100bn and leave them to it.

It's my opinion that were benefits to be drastically (and I mean drastically) scaled back, to the point where the only real welfare was free healthcare and education you could equip and motivate much of the present doley class to get off their behinds and do something.

Social policy has been studied scientifically a fair number of times the conclusion is always the same

1) Governments are totally useless.

2) Free markets work really, really well.

3) The less intervention the better.

4) What you subsidise you get more of, what you yax you get less of.

Can you see why these findings never see the light of day?

[Dazmondo]

What can I say other than about bloody time!!! Where the genuinly disabled are unabled to work, give them more, this can be ofset by taking money away from the bogus claimants.

[mbga9pgf]

They call it a 'revolutionary' idea. I am sure it is just not in the way they'd like to think it is.

Full time work for the pittance they pay in unemployment benefit, slavery indeed.

Personally I'd rather see my tax pounds go to the unemployed, rather than 'doled' out to

corrupt free market swindlers. At least the money spent on the unemployed goes right back into the

economy, not salted off to a tax haven. Tossers the lot of them.

what, on fake burberry, Kappa trousers, Skag and Ciggies?

I would personally prefer to see this layabout scum Starve to death than receive a single penny of mine. Im not talking income support; I am talking about those that have never done a days work in their life.

Remove them from the gene pool.

[eightiesgirly]

It's all spin to make the middle classes happy that 'something' is being done.

These people do not want to work, it's not worth it, they would be out of pocket going to work.

We've had all these stupid schemes before, always when there are no jobs. There are no manual jobs in the U.K. anymore, no machinists, packers, machine minders, tool setters, no labourers or roofing felt layers, no insulation makers, shipbuilders or miners. All the jobs went to cheap labour abroad, the rest pay rubbish wages to foreigners who don't have to try and live here and raise a family in this vastly overtaxed, cold damp isle.

We need real jobs where people can earn a decent living, buy a home and raise a family, not stupid schemes with imaginary jobs

and sound bites to appease overburdened taxpayers.

More joke policies from Labour.

[Viterbi]

I would say that anyone in employment is deficient. If they were any good they would be the one doing the employing.

What we have in this country is a lack of opportunity due to scale. Gone are the days when you had independent retailers on the high street. Now every high street is the same chain stores. The scale of these operations means that is not cost efficient to set up and compete. This has lead to the loss of a whole generation of entrepreneurs. Its not just retail, but every industry. Want to set up a metal bashing shop and you find that the products can be produced by larger shops cheaper. There are very few entry points left for business outside of window cleaner or plumber.

This is deliberate policy to make the people dependent, either on these mega businesses or government handouts. All the endless new regulations are there for just this reason. They cost of compliance is tiny for the large business that can have a full time team on them, the small business cannot afford that team. The large businesses love these regulations since they serve to eliminate the small operation.

What we need is to place restrictions on the large operations. To get back to lots of small producers, innovating and competing. From this base comes the giants of tomorrow. But such a business model is not owned by the suits in the city and so is opposed. It is not regulated by the fascist state and so is opposed. What we have is "We will let you keep 10% of everything you make". Not suprising that people rebel and dont make anything.

Well said.

Have you seen these:

Populists and the economy

Populist Principles

New ideas for a new century

The way ahead

They might be up your street.

[winkie]

Say what they think you want to hear, do something completly different, and hope you won't notice.

[salamander]

Well said.

Have you seen these:

Populists and the economy

Populist Principles

New ideas for a new century

The way ahead

They might be up your street.

..and you can get straight to BNP TV from the Links page. Result!

[copydude]

No. No. No.

6 months is more than adequate to find one, and may not be the job they want but it’s something until they can find something better.

Cash for first 6 months, then after 6 months - Vouchers. To prevent people coming on and off work every few months, they should be able to do this twice in 10 years after that its vouchers.

Vouchers are the way to go - sim

Travel cards - buses & trains only.

Thanks

Sick

Well, Sick - how apt - you really are sick.

Do you know how long it takes to find a job these days? You really believe the ONS unemployment stats like the inflation stats? You think Labour doesn't lie?

Fill-in jobs aren't available to most people - unless they're student or immigrant.

Vouchers. To prevent people coming on and off work every few months

Ha! Why do you think Gordon's minimum wage is an hourly rate? As opposed to a living wage. You think employers commit themselves to anything longer term than next week?

Ultimate idiocy, you wrote:

6 months is more than adequate to find one, and may not be the job they want but it’s something until they can find something better

Tell me one company that's going to hire someone for a job they don't want, who's going to leave as soon as they find something better. You think all HR people are stoopid?

Travel cards - buses & trains only

Got news for you, sicko. There hasn't been a Social Services budget for these round here for at least three years. Buses or trains.

Are you by any chance a Labour Minister on expenses?

[Flopsy]

I'm disabled and in contact with our disabled people. Not on IB and I have supported myself all through illness, accidents and other circumstances.

Other disabled people have not had that luck. In my own area are people left to rot as the NHS doesn't treat them and they have no right to medical treatment or to try drugs that could benefit them. There is a shortage of neurologists in this country (for example) and long waits for MRI/CAT scans for people who have had accidents.

Disabled people have no right to transport or to jobs with flexible hours that they could do. No rights to wheelchairs or aids that would make their lives easier. No rights to home care that would enable them to have a bath or be dressed for a job. At my worst I could not even do this and the lack of care (for the young disabled) is appalling.

The disabled face intrusive and insulting interviews and tribunals that would make Kafka disbelieving (I have accompanied people to these). Insulting medical checks that involve touching their bodies by people who are opening dismissive and sneering.

One wheelchair bound woman with an incurable neurological disease took 2 years and 2 tribunals before she was able to get a benefit that she was entitled to (after decades of paying taxes). The govt recognises that the assessment for disabled benefits doesn't work as 40% of tribunals win. This means years of fighting by disabled people.

Yes, there are scroungers out there but the government seems to have no way to tell genuine people from the scroungers. And the genuine people are suffering.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Flopsy

[frozen_out]

Social policy has been studied scientifically a fair number of times the conclusion is always the same

Show me the evidence.

Ta.

[Nicholas Cage]

Incapacity benefits used to be RPI all items, the weighting is government controlled.

The presumption is people on IB have the removed items paid for from other benefits.

ONS

Income-related benefits (e.g. Job Seeker's Allowance, Housing Benefit and Income Support) are usually

uprated in line with September’s 12-month rate of the Rossi index, defined as the all items retail prices

index excluding rent, mortgage interest payments, council tax and depreciation costs.

As part of these alignment measures, we will also change the basis on which incapacity benefits are

uprated. Future uprating will be according to the Rossi index rather than Retail Prices Index (RPI) on

current projections. In the first few years from April 2009, this measure will result in an increase in

benefit payments overall, compared to uprating under the previous formula. Uprating both incapacity

benefits and ESA by the same index will prevent differences in benefit rates widening over time. This will

ensure that customers with similar circumstances are treated equally.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/welfarereform/noonew...ff-complete.pdf

The deflation of RPI because of housing might tip it over, right at the end (June 2008), Rossi is starting to overtake RPI hitting a massive 5.1% YOY inflation from June 2007

(RPI is 4.6%)

This is going to cost a lot more in benefits for the next government than RPI would have, a nice gift from Labour.

Edit: I realised all Rossi rated benfits might have an increase of around 3% YOY when it is triggered in September 2008, this would be the highest level since 1992 and the biggest YOY jump since 1989.

Edited July 21, 2008 by maxwell

[Injin]

Show me the evidence.

Ta.

Read this -

http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Ground-Americ...y/dp/0465042333

[copydude]

I'm disabled and in contact with our disabled people.

Disabled people have no right to transport or to jobs with flexible hours that they could do. No rights to wheelchairs or aids that would make their lives easier. No rights to home care that would enable them to have a bath or be dressed for a job. At my worst I could not even do this and the lack of care (for the young disabled) is appalling.

It's exactly why the Remploy factories were set up in a previous age of enlightenment. (Actually, just after the war, we really haven't had much enlightenment since then.)

Now, who sold off all the Remploy factories?

Put it this way: which sleazy scumbag was the DWP Minister when new, purpose-built Remploy factories to enable the disabled were suddenly closed wholesale and sold off to private enterprise?

I'll give you a clue. Initials, PH. Currently under investigation by the fraud squad for irregular donations towards a certain dodgy Labour leadership campaign.

[Pindar]

What's needed is an incentive to work. If big-government was abolished and taxation was reduced or even abolished for low paid workers, there would be more incentive for people to work instead of signing on. Even better, place a true free-market price on the jobs that are widely condisered "low skilled" and let the market decide how much rubbish collectors and toilet cleaners are paid. I'm pretty sure that filthy public toilets and rubbish piling up in the streets would prompt the general public to pay generously for people to clean things up. I would pay £1 to use a public convenience if it was spotless and smelled fresh all the time. I would also pay somebody privately to collect my bins once a week.

The point I'm making is, why shouldn't bin men, fast food workers and all the other low paid jobs demand reasonable reward for doing what they do when compared with other supposedly useful jobs? If we were all forced back onto the land, the most successful would be those who were willing to work the land and live off the crops they grew. This sort of effort would be, in such a world, rewarded fairly and naturally. The modern world is completely the opposite. Manual labour and supposedly "menial" jobs are the least rewarded yet they are crucial to the function of our world. Why aren't they rewarded accordingly? Why is it that land is prohibitively expensive, thereby making it impossible to live off the fruits of ones own labour?

To sort the workshy from the workless, the government should offer free arable land to the unemployed and then support them for one year to produce food from it. They could then sell the food to local markets and keep the profits. They would be allowed to live on the land if they wanted, with government provided basic accommodation. If after a year (in which climatic conditions were considered OK for crop production) no crops were produced, then the claimant would be given a further year to start producing or lose benefits altogether. This way, you satisfy the requirement to find out who is genuinely workshy at the same time as giving the claimant a real chance to benefit from his/her efforts. This could apply to other areas of industry too.

Big government and high taxation, greed, speculation and dishonesty are the main factors in creating our present situation. If some of these were removed and people were given back what has been stolen from them by collectivisation, property speculation (fuelled by banks) and desire for tat were removed, we would be forced to go back to seeing the connection between our efforts and rewards. The connection between effort and living would be re-established, to the good of all.

[eightiesgirly]

Our children have learned that to become rich you do one or more of the following :

a) Become a drug supplying gangsta.

Become famous for anything at all.

c) Win the lottery.

d) Become a con-man. (banker)

e) Borrow property ,and sit on your duff.

I don't see too many examples of hard work paying off.

[SickofRenting]

Well, Sick - how apt - you really are sick.

Do you know how long it takes to find a job these days? You really believe the ONS unemployment stats like the inflation stats? You think Labour doesn't lie?

Fill-in jobs aren't available to most people - unless they're student or immigrant.

Ha! Why do you think Gordon's minimum wage is an hourly rate? As opposed to a living wage. You think employers commit themselves to anything longer term than next week?

Ultimate idiocy, you wrote:

Tell me one company that's going to hire someone for a job they don't want, who's going to leave as soon as they find something better. You think all HR people are stoopid?

Got news for you, sicko. There hasn't been a Social Services budget for these round here for at least three years. Buses or trains.

Are you by any chance a Labour Minister on expenses?

Apologies if I have upset you - not intended at all. It may seem harsh.

To your points.

There seems to be plenty of jobs in my local rag, several hundreds every week - and this is a medium sized town.

In my experiences (and I use this strongly) I always found it easy to get a job even if I didn't like it (thus you wouldn't tell your potential employer you will hate the job at the interview).

Social services budget for travel could be re-implemented as the cost (hopefully) reclaimed might allow this.

No I'm not a gov. minister on expenses. I'm self employed and have been for approx 8 months - IT work and going strong with more work several years down the line despite recession.

I have a disablement - I never claimed tax credits/disabled benifits or any of that, only from age of 16 to 18 during college years as my mum wanted me to claim. As soon as I started working at 18 I stopped it all - As I found it was wasn't right somehow (if you think you are entiltled then great, but not for me). I pay for all my equiment to help me with my disablement, it can be costly but I'm not complaining, its life.

I don't really want to get into an argument - I'm just so frustrated that my (and other hard working tax payers) money is being used for lazy slobs who can't be bothered to get a job - the tax which could a lot less so I could afford a place of my own one day - perhaps you are in the same position.

I don't mind people claiming the dole if its genuine and start looking for work.

Thanks

[MrPin]

Well, if you think crime is bad enough now then just wait until this lot lose their benefits and go on the rampage.

Welfare is a way of controlling people you know? I know that was never the original intention but thats the way it's ended up.

I can't see it happening for just those reasons.

The coercion will not work as intended...

Being "forced" to attend interviews for totally unsuitable/imaginary positions, is just wrong!

I tried it back in the 90s, when I was laid off, and I really didn't like it. It took a lot of time out of yer life,

and I was always "overqualified", for the position available. Well, they had read my c.v. beforehand I hope?

No perhaps not! Totally nasty experience....

As the old "dole queue" grows, so this problem will re-appear!

Also the "scrounger-phobic" news articles will surface!

Just to frighten those "still lucky enough" to be in employment!

Oh crikey! I think I am getting cynical...

[steve99]

Hello steve99, i have created the_stan@hotmail.co.uk. Feel free to email if you want info.

Good evening to all

Thanks, I have replied to that

Steve

[keeprenting]

Read this -

http://www.amazon.com/Losing-Ground-Americ...y/dp/0465042333

Isn't the author the same guy who wrote the book about how black people were, erm, a bit "fick."

[Viterbi]

..and you can get straight to BNP TV from the Links page. Result!

Some programmes are well worth watching. The BNP aren't anywhere near as bad as those nasty Tories are.

You see, the BNP will create public works programmes to generate meaningful employment at a wage you can live on. The Tories will bring back the workhouse run by greedy corporate fat cats paying minimum wage for miserable hard graft.

[Bubble Pricker]

The two threads covering this same topic have been merged.

[Yoss]

I won't believe it till I see it, much the same as all the other "initiatives" they propose, the legislation will take months of tax payers money to perfect, and then it's only any good if they actually soding "POLICE" it, which they wont.

Putting ad's on TV does not mean your policing it, and most frauulent claimers know it.

What exactly happens if your caught on benefit when you should not have received it? How many apart from the really stoopid/crazy claimants are actually caught... Very few apart from those that got up thier neighbours noses and actually got shopped in.

And what exactly is stopping a long term unemployed person taking a job for 2 weeks, resetting the clock then going back and claiming, "All this getting up for work, shopping, cooking food for the kids has put my stress back to day one".

REAL Depression is horrible, but saddly faking it is way to easy!

Hell most tax payers are pretty depressed at the moment , Work all day to service a huge mortgage on a small house, and all the money for a holiday this year went up the wall in interest payments and dirty great gas/lecky/Council tax bills and worse is to come, that house I slave away fo is worth less than I paid for it (Not exactly motivation).

Best way to reduce benefit claimants and increase productivity, is to give people more incentive to work, by lowering both benefits AND TAXES (direct and in-direct), saddly most of the last 10 year boom in the UK went on buying votes.

Edited July 21, 2008 by Yoss

[Injin]

Isn't the author the same guy who wrote the book about how black people were, erm, a bit "fick."

http://www.amazon.com/Bell-Curve-Intellige...5113&sr=1-1

Product Description

The seminal book about IQ and class that ignited one of the most explosive controversies in decades, now updated with a new Afterword by Charles Murray

Breaking new ground and old taboos, Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murray tell the story of a society in transformation. At the top, a cognitive elite is forming in which the passkey to the best schools and the best jobs is no longer social background but high intelligence. At the bottom, the common denominator of the underclass is increasingly low intelligence rather than racial or social disadvantage.

[Pindar]

What happened to the other thread "Benifit Claimant's Forced To Work For Their Hand Out" on a similar subject?

http://www.housepricecrash.co.uk/forum/ind...view=getnewpost

[CrashConnoisseur]

alwightchav! #253 Thanks, but i was really getting at the 2.8 mill on incapacity benefit as well.

Chrysalis only specified "people on the dole" -- Job Seekers Allowance.